Episodi

  • Your Quiet Quitter Isn't Lazy: Three Mismatches Behind the Same Disengagement, a #straightfromcait episode

    Your Quiet Quitter Isn't Lazy: Three Mismatches Behind the Same Disengagement, a #straightfromcait episode
    Oct 25 2026
    A perfectly good solution aimed at the wrong problem is still the wrong solution.Picture an employee who has been fantastic for years. Smart, dependable, great work. Lately they are quieter in meetings, they stopped volunteering for projects, and they are doing what is required and not one thing more. What would you do? Time off? Coaching? Better boundaries?In this episode, I walk you through three different Sams. All three show the exact same disengagement. All three have completely different problems underneath it. One is a micromanaging new boss. One is a dementia diagnosis at home and no sleep. One is the person everybody relies on, who gets more work instead of more money, more authority or more say. And that is the point: when we treat the behavior as the diagnosis instead of the symptom, we spend time, energy and money fixing the wrong thing. Burnout is not a personal failure. It is a signal that something is out of alignment, and new polling says it is not getting any better.In this episode, I cover:Why the same disengagement can come from three completely different mismatchesThe autonomy mismatch: when a new manager takes away the trust someone used to haveThe capacity mismatch: when life changes and the workload no longer fits the time and energy you haveThe effort-reward mismatch: when everything you put in stops being reflected in what you get backWhy a vacation, a coach or another resilience workshop will not fix a mismatch it was never aimed atWhy burnt out people almost never say more money would fix it, and what burnout does to how effort and reward feelCompounding mismatches and the web of causation I wrote for burnoutWhy removing blame does not remove responsibility, for managers, employees or organizationsThe three questions to ask before you try to fix anyone: What am I seeing and what am I assuming? What has changed? Is there something I can do to bring this person closer to a match?Why we keep solving symptoms instead of diagnoses, and what it costs usQuotes"A perfectly good solution aimed at the wrong problem is still the wrong solution." (00:51 | Cait Donovan)"Oftentimes we are using the behavior as the diagnosis instead of the symptom." (01:08 | Cait Donovan)"None of them have ever said that if they got paid more money, they would feel better." (04:26 | Cait Donovan)"Burnout rarely comes from one isolated mismatch. I've actually never seen that happen, not once in thousands of people." (04:51 | Cait Donovan)"Removing blame doesn't remove responsibility." (06:57 | Cait Donovan)"We get much further along the path when we figure out what needs to change instead of starting with who needs to be fixed." (07:11 | Cait Donovan)"Stop trying harder at solving the wrong thing. Start figuring out what actually needs to change." (12:37 | Cait Donovan)In this episode, we mentioned...Mismatch: Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations by Cait Donovan: https://caitdonovan.com/mismatchWhy Giving Your Best Employees More Autonomy Sometimes Backfires (And What to Do Instead), a #straightfromcait episode (FRIED, May 2026): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/8e59a176-4ef4-43df-8463-9ba628e09da4What Employee Engagement Surveys Really Tell You, a #straightfromcait episode (FRIED #361): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/fc11fac2-c8b1-4286-bc21-4699dcd3fdc1Can You Burn Out in a Good Workplace? a #straightfromcait episode (FRIED #363): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/f389bde0-aa95-4454-96c2-0e12362b046aBurnout Is Not Your Fault, It's a Mismatch: An Early Look at My New Book (FRIED #365): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/ff4aaa82-f693-430a-95fc-6dddd162a6e4Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations: Jess Pettitt Interviews Me About Mismatch (FRIED, Oct 2026): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/8f53e92c-a8ef-4045-af5d-6d3066a0d903If you work in HR, People and Culture, or you lead a team that has gone quiet, this is the conversation to bring to your organization.Connect with CaitGet your copy of Mismatch: https://caitdonovan.com/mismatchOrder Mismatch for your team (bulk copies): annick@caitdonovan.comBook Cait to speak: https://bit.ly/bookcaitWatch the 3-minute sizzle reel: https://bit.ly/caitdreel2025Instagram: https://instagram.com/caitdonovanspeaksLinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/caitdonovanspeaksXOXO, CAbout the HostCait Donovan is a burnout expert, keynote speaker, and host of FRIED. The Burnout Podcast, a top 1% global show with over 1 million downloads and 360+ episodes, ending burnout culture since 2019. With a background in biobehavioral sciences and Traditional Chinese Medicine, she helps organizations find the mismatch behind burnout instead of blaming the people inside it. She is the author of The Bouncebackability Factor and Mismatch: Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations.#...
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    13 min
  • Bankrupt and in the Hall of Fame the Same Year: How Leaders Climb Out of Crisis, with Jess Pettitt

    Bankrupt and in the Hall of Fame the Same Year: How Leaders Climb Out of Crisis, with Jess Pettitt
    Oct 18 2026
    "The same year that I filed bankruptcy, I was inducted into the Hall of Fame." Jess PettittOn Inauguration Day, my friend Jess Pettitt lost her largest contract. Not because of anything she did. The entire office she worked with was closed 21 minutes after the inauguration, and the people she'd been working with called her from the sidewalk, holding boxes of everything that had been on their desks. Then the state contracts went. Then the retainers. Twenty years of building a business, flipped in a minute. Bankruptcy. Depression. And in the middle of all of it, a call from the National Speakers Association: you're being inducted into the Hall of Fame.This is not a highlight reel, and neither is her new book, Doing Good Better: Using Dysfunction as a Catalyst for Change.In this episode, I sit down with Jess to talk about what really happens when everything falls apart at once, and why so many leaders end up burnt out and alone in it, convinced nobody can help them. We get into her five-stage climb for organizations in crisis, why most companies run on a story that's "reported up instead of verified across," the difference between planting a flag and hanging up decoration, and why the mess you're afraid of is already there. If you lead people, this is burnout prevention at the system level, not a pedicure.Key Topics Covered:What it's like to lose your largest contract 21 minutes into a new administration, and the wave of losses that followedFiling bankruptcy and being inducted into the Speaker Hall of Fame in the same year, and holding joy and tragedy at onceWhy your identity being tied to your work makes a professional crisis a personal oneThe leaders who believe "no one can help me," why they feel so alone, and why that loneliness is disempoweringInternal pressure vs. external pressure, and learning to function inside the pressure without doing it aloneWhy so many leadership books ignore the fact that leaders are humanThe climb: know your numbers, hold the line, earn the room, plant the flag, outlast the cycleHow organizations evolve into "a story that is reported up instead of verified across," and why no one is reading the quarterly reportThe CEO of 80,000 employees still running his company like it had four peopleCooperatition: why cooperating with your competition is how you actually earn the roomPlanting a flag vs. decoration: what Anthropic and Costco got right, and why a statement for your website isn't a valueWhy the mess is already there, and why recognizing it is the hardest (and most important) stepQuotes:"The same year that I filed bankruptcy, I was inducted into the Hall of Fame as a lifetime achievement for the 20 years of work." (13:42 | Jess Pettitt)"Loneliness is disempowering." (20:19 | Jess Pettitt)"Not to relieve the pressure, but to function inside the pressure, not alone. Now we can get somewhere." (22:28 | Jess Pettitt)"So many leadership books are written in a way that ignores the fact that leaders are human." (22:50 | Cait Donovan)"No one is reading that report. But above that, no one read it. No one knows anything because no one read it." (35:50 | Jess Pettitt)"That's not planting a flag. That's decoration. I don't do decorations." (52:58 | Jess Pettitt)"You are in a mess that you either do or don't acknowledge. You're not searching for a mess. It's already there." (55:56 | Jess Pettitt)In this episode, we mentioned...Doing Good Better: Using Dysfunction as a Catalyst for Change, by Jessica PettittGood Enough Now, by Jessica PettittMismatch: Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations, by Cait Donovan (out October 27, 2026)The National Speakers Association and the Speaker Hall of FameMaslow's hierarchy of needsHow a Leader's Ego Can Burn Out Their Team with Ewa Błaszczak (FRIED #362): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/b700a7df-0551-43c9-a090-8dbf1c7d235fYour Team Already Knows You're Burnt Out: Leadership, Capacity and the Busy Badge, with Anton Gunn (FRIED #366): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/bf0988c2-d195-4618-8bd0-3b0f86c956fbDaisy Auger-Dominguez: Burnt Out Leaders Lead Burnt Out Teams (FRIED, Sep 2024): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/ffa7b9d6-0632-4b0f-bb12-0960a7c04459#straightfromcait: How to Ask for Help (FRIED #10): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/6a6bd8f1-6666-4018-97d5-a73c4545a75dConnect with Jess PettittJess Pettitt, CSP, CPAE, is a leadership and crisis communications keynote speaker and advisor. She started out as a university administrator by day and a stand-up comic by night in New York City's comedy clubs, and spent 20+ years doing diversity, equity and inclusion work with more than 1,400 organizations and half a million audience members. In 2026 she was inducted into the National Speakers Association's Speaker Hall of Fame. Her newest book, Doing Good Better, is a no-fluff guide for ...
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    1 ora e 2 min
  • Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations: Jess Pettitt Interviews Me About Mismatch

    Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations: Jess Pettitt Interviews Me About Mismatch
    Oct 11 2026
    Preorder Mismatch (out October 27, 2026): https://caitdonovan.com/mismatch"I just, for the first time, realized that I'm not actually in a toxic workplace. I'm just in a bad match." From an email a coaching client sent me.For almost three years, a woman in one of our UNFRIED coaching cohorts kept calling her workplace toxic. Then she listened to my episode on what "toxic" actually means according to the research, and she sent me that email. Nothing about her job changed that weekend. What changed was the story. The blame and the finger pointing dropped, and a much more useful question showed up: where's the mismatch?That question is the whole book. Burnout isn't a personal failure, and it isn't always a bad company. It's a symptom of a mismatch between a person and the place they work, and it's not the only symptom. My new book, Mismatch: Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations, comes out October 27, 2026, and this week my friend Jess Pettitt, Hall of Fame speaker and author of Doing Good Better, turns the mic around and interviews me about it.We talk about how a book about burnout stopped being about burnout, the cold email that turned into a book deal, why somebody could have built me a utopian workplace and I still would have burnt out, and the Mismatch Index I built so organizations can find the gap without ever weaponizing the results. We also get into why there are zero books on how to be a better employee, why leaders are being told to act like therapists, what it would look like to stop top-downing and start middling out, and why the one page I'd keep from the whole book is about interoception. (Yes, pee when you need to pee.)Key Topics Covered:How a book about burnout became a book about mismatch, and why mismatch underlies all of our people problemsThe cold email that turned into a book deal, after I'd self-published my first bookBurnout as a party of one: when you're the solopreneur and also the boss you should be blamingWhy a utopian workplace wouldn't have saved me, and how the coping mechanisms that made me successful (hello, hyper-independence) turned on meBurnout, attrition, disengagement and quiet quitting as symptoms of the same mismatchThe Mismatch Index: an assessment that shows which part of the gap is systemic, which part is leadership, and which part is you, and why companies only ever see aggregate resultsWhy we default to blame, and why every book on the shelf is about being a better leader and none are about being a better employeeWhat the fraud triangle and whistleblowers taught me about why good people go against the grainLeaders are being told to be therapists, and the case for middling out instead of top-downingThe four behaviors that make a workplace actually toxic (ostracism, bullying, harassment and incivility), and why you should get out if you're being harmedHow to hire without building mismatch into your team, starting with your own leadership training and a real fit tool instead of your gutThe paper plate exercise, interoception, and the story behind the matches on the coverQuotes:"I'm the boss that I should be blaming." (07:36 | Cait Donovan)"Somebody could have created a utopian workplace for me and I would have burnt out anyway." (08:51 | Cait Donovan)"I started this book about burnout and now it's not about burnout anymore. It's about mismatch, and mismatch underlies all of our people problems." (13:43 | Cait Donovan)"The company will never get the individual results. They only get aggregate results, because I will not allow this tool to be weaponized in any way, shape or form." (15:28 | Cait Donovan)"You're decorating it, not fixing it." (17:30 | Jess Pettitt)"Every single book I came across was how to make a better leader. There were zero books, not one book on how to be a better employee." (19:59 | Cait Donovan)"Why are we always top-downing? Why can't we middle out?" (27:16 | Cait Donovan)In this episode, we mentioned...Mismatch: Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations, by Cait Donovan (out October 27, 2026): https://caitdonovan.com/mismatchThe Bouncebackability Factor, by Cait DonovanDoing Good Better: Using Dysfunction as a Catalyst for Change, by Jessica PettittChristina Maslach, Wilmar Schaufeli and Michael Leiter's research on burnout and the six areas of mismatchJustin Patton, the trust guyThe Predictive IndexThe fraud triangleUNFRIED coaching with Sarah VosenThe 4 Behaviors of A Toxic Workplace, a #straightfromcait episode: https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/a1b0062e-4b06-4b19-81b3-b95b4954adf7Toxic or Just a Bad Fit? How to Tell the Difference at Work, with Leanne Elliott: https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/af365c2e-a0f5-4d86-a459-f75b881b46f7Burnout Is Not Your Fault, It's a Mismatch: An Early Look at My New Book (FRIED #365): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/ff4aaa82-f693-430a-95fc-6dddd162a6e4Can You Burn Out in a ...
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    48 min
  • Your Team Already Knows You're Burnt Out: Leadership, Capacity and the Busy Badge, with Anton Gunn

    Your Team Already Knows You're Burnt Out: Leadership, Capacity and the Busy Badge, with Anton Gunn
    Oct 4 2026
    Your team already knows you're burnt out. Anton Gunn said it out loud on one of his leadership lives, and I almost drove off the road: "Leaders, your team knows you're burnt out, so here's what we're going to do about it."In this episode, I sit down with Anton Gunn, a leadership and workplace culture expert, former senior advisor to President Barack Obama, and one of the less than 1% of speakers in the Speaker Hall of Fame, to dig into why burnout is not a personal failure but an organizational capacity problem, and why the person at the top is usually the last to see it. We get into the reframe that stopped me in my tracks, "burnout is a signal, it's data that something is wrong in the organization," and then I push back with the biology, because your wiring matters too. High achievers, people pleasers and perfectionists do not slow down just because the culture is healthy.Then Anton takes it somewhere I did not expect. The leaders who say "don't bring me your problems" are usually the ones already burning out. Busyness becomes a badge ("I ain't got time to bleed"). A single unilateral decision, made by a leader too busy to investigate, spirals into a 63% turnover rate over four years. And the fix is almost insultingly simple and almost nobody does it: three 30 minute one-on-ones a week. As Anton puts it, if you can't find 90 minutes in a five day week for your people, you don't deserve to lead.This one is for the leader who feels the exhaustion and keeps performing through it, and for the HR and People and Culture teams watching it ripple across the org. You can't fix what you can't see. So let's look.Key Topics CoveredWhy burnout is an organizational capacity problem, not a personal willpower problem, and what "capacity" actually meansThe reframe that reset the conversation: burnout is a signal, it's data that something is wrong in the systemCait's pushback: the biology of burnout, and why high achievers, perfectionists and hyper-independent people burn out regardless of the cultureWhat a leader's job actually is (get the boulders out of the way so your people can do their best work)Why "don't bring me your problems" is a burnout tell, and how it quietly shuts your whole team downThe busy badge: how "I ain't got time to bleed" becomes the most expensive line in the buildingThe meeting after the meeting, and what it signals about a leader who is too busy for their peopleA real story: one unilateral decision that triggered a 63% turnover rate over four yearsThe one-on-one rule: three 30 minute conversations a week, and why skipping them means you don't deserve to leadGiving your people (and your assistant) veto power over your calendar and permission to tell you your stuff stinksThe neuroscience of a burnt out brain, and why a checked-out leader is not a bad person, they are running offlineThe three C's of 21st century leadership: commitment, competency and capacityQuotes"Burnout is a signal, it's data that something's wrong in the organization." (6:58 | Cait Donovan)"The people who say don't bring me your problems are the people who probably already burned out." (24:17 | Anton Gunn)"You can't fix what you can't see." (25:15 | Anton Gunn)"Busyness demonstrates effectiveness, busyness demonstrates productivity. Busyness is a justification for our title and our role." (32:16 | Anton Gunn)"That's what a lot of executives do. I ain't got time to listen to you, I ain't got time to hear what you're saying, because I'm so busy." (33:00 | Anton Gunn)"If you can't find 90 minutes in a five day week to do three 30 minute one-on-ones, you don't deserve to lead." (36:44 | Anton Gunn)"You've got to let people tell you that your stuff stinks." (37:50 | Anton Gunn)"You've got to have commitment, competency and capacity. If you don't have all three, you're going to be ineffective as a leader." (46:00 | Anton Gunn)> Times reflect the published YouTube cut (cold open + intro + interview). Verify against the final audio upload if the audio master is trimmed differently.In this episode, we mentioned...Kathleen Sebelius, former Governor of Kansas and Anton's boss in the Obama administration, and her rule: "if you bring me a problem, I'm going to solve it."Predator (the 1987 film with Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jesse Ventura), source of the "I ain't got time to bleed" line.Chantal Lowe, the Olympian Cait sat next to at the National Speakers Association breakfast where she first met Anton.Anton's three C's of 21st century leadership: commitment, competency, capacity.Related FRIED episodes to binge next:How a Leader's Ego Can Burn Out Their Team, with Ewa Błaszczak (FRIED #362) https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/b700a7df-0551-43c9-a090-8dbf1c7d235fWhy Your Culture Initiatives Keep Failing, And What Actually Works, with Chris Pineda (FRIED, 2026-04) https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/754b7335-ef6c-4973-88eb-c1e1abfd7f9fWe're Expecting the Wrong ...
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    53 min
  • Burnout Is Not Your Fault, It's a Mismatch: An Early Look at My New Book, a #straightfromcait episode

    Burnout Is Not Your Fault, It's a Mismatch: An Early Look at My New Book, a #straightfromcait episode
    Sep 27 2026
    FRIED Fam,One month before Mismatch: Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations lands, I got the email I was most nervous to open. A beta reader who has read a mountain of burnout books, and admits her honest reaction to most of them is "meh," told me this one was the exact opposite. So this week I am doing something a little different. I am reading her review on the show and walking you through what she noticed, because what she picked up on is the whole point of the book.Here is the reframe I have been saying since 2019 and built this entire book around: burnout is not your fault. It is also not simply your organization's fault. It is a series of compounding mismatches between you and your work, your values, your capacity, and your life. There is always a straw that broke the camel's back, but there were a thousand things before it. If we only look at the last straw, we never actually recover, and we carry the same mismatches into the next job, the next team, the next business.I get into the part of Mismatch that early readers keep flagging: the blamelessness, why I never demonize a coping mechanism like perfectionism or people pleasing, and the line I felt in my soul when I wrote it, there is not a lot of sympathy for the mismatched success story. If you have the golden handcuffs, a successful life that is not a matched life, you still deserve support and a way to get closer to a match, no matter how good your bank account looks.Whether you feel burnt out in a job everyone says you should be grateful for, or you lead a team and keep wondering why good people keep leaving, this one names what is actually going on and gives you somewhere to start.Key Topics CoveredWhy burnout is not a personal failure, and not only a broken workplace, but a pile-up of compounding mismatchesThe "meh" problem with most burnout books, and what makes a burnout book actually usefulBlamelessness: removing shame, blame, guilt, and judgment from the burnout story on both sidesThe straw that broke the camel's back vs the thousand mismatches that came before itWhy Mismatch is written for every human, not just leaders, and where a leader's responsibility actually endsNever demonizing a coping mechanism: perfectionism, people pleasing, and hyper-independence as data, not defectsThe line in the sand: when a coping mechanism makes you self-abandon and self-neglect, it has become the problemThe mismatched success story: how you can be successful and burnt out at the same time, and why nobody has sympathy for itThe golden handcuffs, and why you deserve a match even when your life looks great on paperThe "make it obvious" rule: stop dropping hints, name what you need, and treat the response as dataWhy match is not a destination, it is an ongoing adjustment for the rest of your lifeQuotes"Burnout is not your fault." (03:56 | Cait Donovan)"Burnout happens because of a series of compounding mismatches from all different places in life." (04:20 | Cait Donovan)"There is a straw that broke the camel's back, but there were a thousand things that happened before then." (04:32 | Cait Donovan)"We never demonize a coping mechanism." (08:16 | Cait Donovan)"When your coping mechanism requires you to self-abandon and self-neglect in order to be used, it has become problematic and needs some unwinding." (09:08 | Cait Donovan)"There is not a lot of sympathy for the mismatched success story." (11:00 | Cait Donovan)"You still deserve to get support and get closer to a match, no matter how good your bank account looks." (11:19 | Cait Donovan)"Match is not a destination. It is an ongoing adjustment." (12:58 | Cait Donovan)(Timestamps assume the built cold open plus intro at the top; confirm against the final export.)In this episode, I mentionedCan You Burn Out in a Good Workplace? a #straightfromcait episode (FRIED #363) - https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/f389bde0-aa95-4454-96c2-0e12362b046aCEO Burnout: Why a Great Leader Was Burning Out in a Healthy Organization, a #straightfromcait episode (FRIED #360) - https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/aa58b8b5-b42a-497a-b63a-7a3333551176Coping Mechanisms and Burnout: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, a #straightfromcait episode (FRIED #2) - https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/cf9afbb2-0177-4150-9a31-53bff170220bShelley Paxton: Shifting From Success-EMPTY to Success-FULL (FRIED #27) - https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/8be93e19-20ce-48f6-bac5-3c327fedc612Links and CTAsPre-order Mismatch: Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations (out October 27, 2026). Kindle: bit.ly/mismatchkindleOrder Mismatch for your team or bulk copies: annick@caitdonovan.comBook Cait to speak on burnout: bit.ly/bookcait · caitdonovan.com/speakingSizzle reel: bit.ly/caitdreel2025Connect with Cait: LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/caitdonovanspeaks · Instagram instagram.com/...
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    14 min
  • Former SWAT Negotiator: The Workplace Mental Health Lie Nobody Tells You | Jessi Beyer

    Former SWAT Negotiator: The Workplace Mental Health Lie Nobody Tells You | Jessi Beyer
    Sep 20 2026
    FRIED Fam,Your company cares about mental health. There is a flyer in the break room, a pizza party in September, and an EAP number nobody calls. And people are still quietly drowning at their desks.This week I sit down with Jessi Beyer, MHP, a crisis mental health professional and former SWAT negotiator, to draw a hard line between crisis awareness (the flyer and the pizza party) and crisis readiness (actual skills that change what happens when a human being is struggling in front of you). Jessi has talked people off ledges for a living. Now she teaches workforces to handle the moment someone finally says "I can't do this anymore."If you are a leader who thinks this is a non-issue because nobody has died on your watch, this one is for you. If you are the high achiever hiding your burnout behind your work and holding it together nine to five while falling apart at home, this one is also for you. Burnout is not a people problem. It is a readiness problem, and readiness is a skill you can build in fifteen minutes.What we get intoWhy the skeptical executive thinks workplace mental health is a non-issue, and the case that changes their mindCrisis awareness versus crisis readiness (why the pizza party does nothing)The LIFE model, and why "just listen" is harder and more useful than it soundsWhy Jessi is at war with EAPs, and the gap between someone struggling and someone actually calling for helpWhat actually counts as a crisis (hint: it is not only suicide)Why your best people are the last ones to show they are burning outThe de-escalation skills that keep YOU safe in a toxic workplace, straight from hostage negotiationWhat it does to your body to stay in a toxic environmentWhy 15 minutes is the real ask, and what it means if your company cannot find itWho decided you had to be the one to save the worldMoments worth the replay"Crisis awareness is a flyer and a pizza party. It does not actually provide any skills that can impact the lives of the people who are struggling." — Jessi Beyer"I am in a war against EAPs. Keep the EAP. But that is the end of the sequence. It is not the beginning, and it is not the whole thing." — Jessi Beyer"Most people who burn out are high achievers, and they know how to hide behind their work. Work is the last place they show it." — Cait Donovan"You can use these skills to keep yourself safe and survive whatever situation you are in. And that includes toxic workplaces." — Jessi Beyer"If you cannot set aside fifteen minutes to have this conversation, that is a symptom of a much bigger problem." — Jessi Beyer"Who decided that you had to be the one to save the world?" — Jessi BeyerMentioned in this episodeThe LIFE model (Jessi's crisis-response framework)Employee Assistance Programs (EAPs) and the readiness gap around themJessi's free suicide-risk readiness diagnostic for teams of 100+More FRIED on thisWhy Companies Are Afraid to Talk About Workplace Wellness (And What That Silence Is Costing Them) — #straightfromcait: https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/178d7007-e654-46eb-8af7-9815228feb31The Workplace is a Trauma Recycling Center — #straightfromcait (FRIED #15): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/d20e94d2-7f75-40ee-bb1c-ccc7efd26193Zenica Chatman: How to Recover From Workplace Bullying that Leads to Burnout (FRIED #5): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/5c792a89-b22e-48a7-8d3e-56f6022ca88dNewton Cheng: I Burned Out in Corporate and Stayed, This Is How (FRIED #1): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/024e0985-6cdc-4b1d-80b4-28d853339dbaAbout the guestJessi Beyer, MHP, is a crisis mental health professional, suicide-prevention and de-escalation speaker, #1 bestselling author, and former SWAT negotiator. A TEDx speaker featured in more than 200 media outlets, she holds master's degrees in critical psychology and military psychology and leads Crisis Readiness Group, which trains workforces to actually respond when someone is struggling.Website: crisisreadinessgroup.comInstagram: @itsjessibeyerAbout meI'm Cait Donovan: keynote speaker, one of the top global burnout experts, and your host here at FRIED. The Burnout Podcast. My book, Mismatch: Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations, is out October 2026.Book me to speak: https://bit.ly/bookcaitSpeaking: caitdonovan.com/speakingWatch the 3-minute sizzle reel: https://bit.ly/caitdreel2025XOXO, C#friedfam #endburnoutculture
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    54 min
  • Can You Burn Out in a Good Workplace? a #straightfromcait episode

    Can You Burn Out in a Good Workplace? a #straightfromcait episode
    Sep 13 2026

    Burnout does not require a toxic workplace.

    For years, the burnout conversation has had a tendency to point fingers in one of two directions. Organizations tell employees they need to become more resilient. Burnt-out employees point back at leadership and say the system needs to change.

    But what if both sides are only partially right?

    In this episode of FRIED. The Burnout Podcast, I’m exploring why good people can burn out inside good organizations, why individual responsibility is not the same thing as individual blame, and why fixing burnout requires us to stop looking for a villain and start looking for the mismatch.

    Even in an organization with supportive leadership, reasonable expectations, and good intentions, mismatches can happen. A leader might offer tons of autonomy because they’re trying not to micromanage, while an employee actually needs more support. Neither person is necessarily doing anything wrong. Their needs and approaches simply don't match.

    And those small mismatches are happening in workplaces all the time.

    In this episode, I cover:
    • Why burnout doesn't require a bad or toxic workplace
    • The false choice between blaming employees and blaming organizations
    • Why “burnout isn't your fault” doesn't mean there's no individual work to do
    • How perfectionism, hyper-independence, and other learned patterns can contribute to burnout
    • Why even great leadership can't protect us from every internal burnout driver
    • How good intentions on both sides can still create workplace mismatches
    • The difference between a toxic workplace and a workplace that simply isn't a good match
    • Why sustainable work doesn't require perfect alignment
    • How organizations and individuals can move toward a “good enough” match together

    The question I want us to start asking

    Instead of:

    Whose fault is this?

    Try:

    Is this a match or a mismatch?

    And if there's a mismatch:

    What can each of us realistically change to move closer to a match?

    The goal isn't a workplace perfectly customized to every individual. And it isn't asking individuals to contort themselves to fit environments that don't work for them.

    It's finding enough alignment that people can feel safe, supported, and comfortable enough to make work sustainable.

    If you've experienced a workplace mismatch and found a way to address it, I'd love to hear your story.

    About the Host

    Cait Donovan is a globally recognized keynote speaker, one of the world’s leading burnout experts, and host of FRIED. The Burnout Podcast, a top 1% podcast with more than 1 million downloads.

    With a background in biobehavioral health and Chinese medicine, Cait takes a systems-based approach to burnout, helping organizations, leaders, and individuals understand burnout not as a personal failure, but as a mismatch between people and the environments in which they work.

    Cait is the author of The Bouncebackability Factor and the forthcoming Mismatch: Why Good People Burn Out in Good Organizations. Her work has been featured in Forbes, NPR, The New York Post, and other major media outlets.

    Bring Cait to your organization: Learn more about Cait’s keynotes and workplace burnout programs at CaitDonovan.com.
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    8 min
  • How a Leader’s Ego Can Burn Out Their Team with Ewa Błaszczak

    How a Leader’s Ego Can Burn Out Their Team with Ewa Błaszczak
    Sep 6 2026
    What happens when a leader's ego is running the show without them even realizing it?In this episode of FRIED. The Burnout Podcast, I'm joined by my longtime friend, leadership expert, and author Ewa Błaszczak to talk about her new book, The Leader and the Ego: The Path to Conscious Leadership. Ewa argues that we don't need to get rid of our egos. We need to become conscious of them, understand what they're trying to protect, and notice when they're making decisions for us.We talk about the connection between leadership ego and employee burnout, why self-awareness becomes increasingly important as leaders gain power, and how unconscious patterns can show up as competition, scarcity, control, rescuing, victimhood, and plenty of unnecessary workplace drama.And yes, Ewa gives us a remarkably simple place to start: notice your thoughts and ask who's listening. In other words, metacognition. The practice is simple. Doing it consistently is another story.In this episode, we cover:What ego actually means and why Ewa doesn't believe we should try to eliminate itHow unconscious ego can affect leadership, team performance, and burnoutWhy thinking you're self-aware and actually being self-aware aren't necessarily the same thingInternal vs. external self-awarenessHow fear, scarcity, competition, comparison, and control can quietly drive leadership behaviorWhy managing your own ego is part of the responsibility of leadershipHow gaining power can make honest feedback harder to getWhy leaders sometimes create problems by constantly stepping in to solve themHow hyper-independence and other patterns can shape what irritates us about other peopleHow to recognize when your own ego has entered the conversationWhy Ewa's ultimate goal for workplaces is surprisingly simple: less dramaOne of my favorite ideas from this conversation is that self-awareness isn't about identifying everything that's wrong with you. It's about becoming aware enough of what's happening internally that you have more choices about what happens next.As Ewa explains, we aren't trying to destroy the ego. We're trying to notice when it's driving. Because an unconscious ego can spend an enormous amount of energy thinking, protecting, analyzing, preparing, fighting, accumulating, planning, and comparing.For leaders, that internal work doesn't stay internal. Your behavior affects the people around you. And when no one feels safe enough to tell you that you have metaphorical spinach in your teeth, an outside perspective can become especially valuable.The goal isn't an ego-free leader. It's a leader who can notice their ego, get curious about what it's doing, and make a more intentional choice.Quotes"Make the unconscious conscious, because otherwise your ego will literally kill you, your productivity, your teams, and it will make you waste your life." (5:48 | Ewa Błaszczak)"It turns out only 10% of us are conscious. It does not mean we have it all figured out, but we know what is going on." (7:58 | Ewa Błaszczak)"If you want to get rid of your ego, it means you want to die. You do not want to die. You want to get to know it, like a scared inner child." (11:00 | Ewa Błaszczak)"Ninety five percent of the things that ego is afraid of will never happen. So we lose our lives like that." (14:39 | Ewa Błaszczak)"I asked my husband, why am I even writing this book? He said, because unhealthy ego hurts people." (24:16 | Ewa Błaszczak)"The higher you get in the corporate ladder, the less the leaders are conscious, and the more the ego is playing the power game." (31:40 | Ewa Błaszczak)"Nobody is going to tell the leader they have spinach in their teeth. But somebody has to." (33:12 | Cait Donovan)Also mentioned in this episodeOwen Fitzpatrick and his book Inner Propaganda, on belief leadership and the stories we tell ourselves. Belief Leadership Starts with Knowing Inner Propaganda with Owen Fitzpatrick (FRIED #357): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/c0af2f66-c0b1-4ca7-91df-33dc20627f75Tasha Eurich, organizational psychologist, on internal versus external self-awarenessCarl Jung, on the shadowStephen Karpman, on the drama triangle (victim, persecutor, rescuer)Kristen Holmes, head researcher at WHOOP, on sleep and psychological safetyRobin Hatcher, former soap opera writer turned communications expert ("I used to write the drama in, now I write the drama out")L. David Marquet, author of Turn the Ship Around!, who wrote the book's forewordRelated FRIED episodes to binge next:The Leadership Skill Nobody Taught You (That Predicts Everything) (FRIED, Apr 2026): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/73db4267-603c-4161-8164-e315f30b26efWe're Expecting the Wrong Things From Leaders And It's Causing Leadership Burnout, a #straightfromcait episode (FRIED, May 2026): https://redcircle.com/shows/e4c0db0a-98a4-47e6-a2b0-6a291469e1d6/episodes/09a4ac57-ae4f-4a74-be47-d00a4a14e930Mita Mallick: Could Your...
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    55 min