Thom’s Nutshell:

Emotional Sobriety is like riding a unicycle.

Allen shares some special interactions he had with Father Richard Rohr, and Thom returns to the show to talk Emotional Sobriety with Patrick.

Richard Rohr’s latest writing, about The Odyssey: https://cac.org/daily-meditations/the-odyssey-a-story-of-homegoing/

Our music is provided by the great southern artist Jefferson Ross. Learn more about Jefferson at jeffersonross.com

Visit our website:

www.emotionalsobriety.info

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here:

https://rebelliondogspublishing.com

Follow us on social media:

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin workshops: https://friendlycircleberlin.org/events

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at pndirective4@gmail.com for any questions or comments.

Thom’s Nutshell:

Be realistic about rejection. Don’t take things personally!

Staying in equanimity, being less reactive are some primary goals of emotional sobriety. We aren’t sick, we’re stuck. Allen uses the example of a loved one failing to show up for him at a critical moment to demonstrate how dependency works. We keep authorship of our experience in our own hands by differentiating. Can we keep our center of gravity over our own two feet, regardless of what happens? Joe C. asks in the second half of the episode: what are the exceptions, the challenges to “our” reality that can do us a service? We get into dating, breakups, and the idea of “controlled” drinking.

Learn more about ICSAA, The International Conference of Secular AA, here (Phoenix event coming November 13-15):

https://www.aasecular.org/icsaa-2026

Our music is provided by the great southern artist Jefferson Ross. Learn more about Jefferson at jeffersonross.com

Visit our website:

www.emotionalsobriety.info

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here:

https://rebelliondogspublishing.com

Follow us on social media:

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin workshops: https://friendlycircleberlin.org/events

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at pndirective4@gmail.com for any questions or comments.

• (00:00:00) - Introduction to Emotional Sobriety Theme
• (00:00:37) - Don't Let Others Edit Your Reality: The Core Concept
• (00:01:25) - Example: Partner Arriving Late to a Talk
• (00:03:19) - Keeping Authorship of Your Own Reality
• (00:04:34) - Dependence, Approval, and Feedback from Others
• (00:06:28) - Personal Struggles with Reactivity and Equanimity
• (00:07:33) - Tom's Absence and Upcoming Book Announcement
• (00:08:30) - Reality as Construct and Recovery Beliefs
• (00:10:04) - Rethinking Long-Term Sobriety and Relapse Beliefs
• (00:13:16) - Everyone's Recovery Looks Different
• (00:15:18) - Breaking Up and Not Internalizing Others' Judgments
• (00:17:32) - Evolving Relationship Values and Responsibility
• (00:19:58) - Change, Growth, and Survival
• (00:21:04) - Upcoming Secular AA Conference in Phoenix

Thom’s Nutshell:

Serious condition: I’ll be okay as soon as that thing that happened to me didn’t happen to me.

There’s a difference between blame and responsibility. Blame comes from “low differentiation,” or a low level of emotional maturity. It’s a sign of where we’re stuck in our development-fused with our environments. Taking responsibility, conversely, empowers us. It gives us more possibilities, brings in enthusiasm and zeal. We’re working towards self-support, where we act for ourselves without being selfish, and acting for others without losing ourselves.

Our music is provided by the great southern artist Jefferson Ross. Learn more about Jefferson at jeffersonross.com

Visit our website:

www.emotionalsobriety.info

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here:

https://rebelliondogspublishing.com

Follow us on social media:

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin workshops: https://friendlycircleberlin.org/events

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at pndirective4@gmail.com for any questions or comments.

• (00:00:07) - Introduction and Recovery 2.0 Retreat with Tommy Rosen
• (00:02:46) - Yoga, Travel, and Recovery Speaking Life
• (00:03:58) - Blame vs Responsibility: Defining Emotional Immaturity
• (00:08:50) - How Blame Turns Us Into Victims
• (00:10:20) - Walking Through a Disappointment Scenario
• (00:12:27) - Empowerment Through Responsibility
• (00:13:49) - Joining Joe: Milestones in Long-Term Sobriety
• (00:14:33) - Childlike Curiosity vs Duty and Obligation
• (00:16:58) - Addiction as a Solution That Almost Worked
• (00:18:00) - Self-Regulation and Mindfulness
• (00:20:16) - Expressing Feelings Through Music
• (00:21:10) - New Parenthood and Emotional Sobriety
• (00:23:04) - Uncharted Territory: Supporting a Struggling Friend
• (00:26:24) - Living With Human Range, Not Transcending It
• (00:27:41) - Agency, Responsibility, and Passing Time
• (00:29:04) - Perpetrator, Victim, Rescuer Triads
• (00:30:23) - Programming, Privilege, and the Limits of Emotional Work
• (00:31:54) - Responsibility as Meaning, Not Burden

Thom’s Nutshell:

"Are you solving the problems you want to solve, or the problems you think you are supposed to solve?"

With emotional sobriety comes a commitment to being honest and authentic with each other and especially ourselves in order to live “congruently.” In line with our values, not oppositional to our natures. This necessitates becoming aware of the unreasonable expectations and unenforceable rules so we can disentangle from them. Acceptance of those is the key part of living and loving differently. This doesn’t mean “giving up.” Acceptance is seeing reality clearly enough to respond wisely. Owning our resistance, the paradox of change, is another important key we encounter.

Patrick’s living and loving demarcation point was his sobriety date, and returning guest Carol Carter’s was in 1987. In recovery from various forms of addiction (alcohol, codependency), they’re both practicing acceptance and moving towards wholeness.

Next week we interview the author Daniel Fulop-Furlano about his new book, “Sincerely, Delusional.”

Rest in peace to the Queen of Country Music, Dolly Parton.

Our music is provided by the great southern artist Jefferson Ross. Learn more about Jefferson at jeffersonross.com

Visit our website:

www.emotionalsobriety.info

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here:

https://rebelliondogspublishing.com

Follow us on social media:

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin workshops: https://friendlycircleberlin.org/events

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at pndirective4@gmail.com for any questions or comments.

• (00:00:07) - Emotional Sobriety
• (00:03:53) - Approval in Recovery: Living and Loving Differently
• (00:10:03) - Exploring the Role of Acceptance in Recovery
• (00:13:11) - A Client's Smelling Her Own Sobriety
• (00:15:21) - Dan Furlough on Dolly Parton's Death
• (00:20:01) - Alan on Love and Alcohol
• (00:22:02) - The Importance of Self-Love
• (00:27:37) - Living With Stuff That Was Lost in the Flood
• (00:33:04) - How to Clean Your Home After a Trauma
• (00:36:58) - Adam Levine on Growing Up With Alcohol
• (00:43:45) - Living and Loving

Thom’s Nutshell:

"Self-denial results in dependence. Self-acceptance creates independence."

Waking up is a process, not an event. A road back to our true lost selves. Daniel Fulop-Furlano joins Allen to talk about his journey towards emotional sobriety, which began with the “Divided Sky” rehab retreat in Ludlow, Vermont. Dan’s book, “Sincerely, Delusional,” is a testament to both the sincerity of his delusion (which we also call “sleepwalking”), and the capacity, beginning with an earnest asking for help, that he’s built brick by brick as a person courageously exposing and addressing his deep set dependencies.

Learn more about Dan and purchase his remarkable book: https://www.sincerelydelusional.com

Learn more about Divided Sky: https://dividedsky.org

Our music is provided by the great southern artist Jefferson Ross. Learn more about Jefferson at jeffersonross.com

Visit our website:

www.emotionalsobriety.info

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here:

https://rebelliondogspublishing.com

Follow us on social media:

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin workshops: https://friendlycircleberlin.org/events

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at pndirective4@gmail.com for any questions or comments.

• (00:00:07) - Introduction and Grateful Dead Sphere Chat
• (00:01:02) - Setting Up the Conversation on Waking Up
• (00:02:39) - The Flight to Rehab and Sincere Delusion
• (00:04:21) - Hitting the Bottom and Limitation
• (00:06:42) - Arriving at Treatment and Losing Freedom
• (00:08:49) - Returning a Year Later and Writing the Book
• (00:12:22) - Discovering Emotional Sobriety Language
• (00:14:51) - Compassion, Honesty, and Safe Spaces in Treatment
• (00:18:46) - Deciding to Go to Treatment Despite Resistance
• (00:21:11) - Sacrifice and Choosing Recovery Over Life Events
• (00:23:11) - Living Fully After Recovery
• (00:23:54) - Public Speaking, Nerves, and Practice
• (00:28:10) - Emotional Sobriety as Maturity and Practice
• (00:29:37) - Waking Up Back Into the World
• (00:31:41) - Book's Impact and Reactions from Readers
• (00:32:50) - Life as an Adventure and Closing Thoughts

Thom’s Nutshell: Challenge your low self esteem and surprise yourself (I did).

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), which was developed in the 60’s by Aaron Beck, dovetails nicely with some of Bill W.’s ideas. Rooted in observing, not denying, but recognizing “I’m becoming defensive “, “I’m taking this personally,” etc. Thom, Patrick, and Joe C. talk cognition before reaction and living in the pause.

Our music is provided by the great southern artist Jefferson Ross. Learn more about Jefferson at jeffersonross.com

Visit our website:

www.emotionalsobriety.info

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here:

https://rebelliondogspublishing.com

Follow us on social media:

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin workshops: https://friendlycircleberlin.org/events

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at pndirective4@gmail.com for any questions or comments.

• (00:00:07) - The Next Step in Recovery: Challenge Your Low Self-Este
• (00:07:02) - The Problem With Talking To Clients
• (00:10:42) - Can You Read People's Minds?
• (00:16:12) - Physical and Emotional Sobriety
• (00:20:59) - On Relationships and Getting Out Of Them
• (00:21:59) - Don't Have to Be Understanded

Thom’s Nutshell:

Don’t make the mistake of thinking you have no impact in this world of ours. You do.

Whether from a pebble or a giant rock, we’re all leaving ripples in the pond. Allen, Thom, and Patrick discuss the illusion of separateness permeating our human bonds. Emotional sobriety can resolve the crises caused by looking towards other people to validate our existence when we don’t think we matter.

Being responsible to others is accepting responsibility to ourselves. Thom and Allen discuss amends and earning our own respect.

Rest in peace Glen Hansard.

Our music is provided by the great southern artist Jefferson Ross. Learn more about Jefferson at jeffersonross.com

Visit our website:

www.emotionalsobriety.info

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here:

https://rebelliondogspublishing.com

Follow us on social media:

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin workshops: https://friendlycircleberlin.org/events

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at pndirective4@gmail.com for any questions or comments.

• (00:00:00) - Emotional Sobriety: Next Step in Recovery
• (00:01:36) - You Deserve to Matter
• (00:07:52) - The Importance of Reality
• (00:10:02) - Codependents: The Joy of Living
• (00:17:35) - "I Made My Amends To My Mom"
• (00:18:29) - Tom Brady on Responsibility

Thom’s Nutshell:

The ability to speak several languages is an asset, but the ability to keep your mouth shut in any language is priceless.

Seeking truth through withholding judgment. What makes it difficult to keep our mouths shut. The Odyssey, grades in school, “won’t” drink versus “can’t” drink. What is the suffering that breaks us open and makes us susceptible to change?

Our music is provided by the great southern artist Jefferson Ross. Learn more about Jefferson at jeffersonross.com

Visit our website:

www.emotionalsobriety.info

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here:

https://rebelliondogspublishing.com

Follow us on social media:

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin workshops: https://friendlycircleberlin.org/events

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at pndirective4@gmail.com for any questions or comments.

• (00:00:07) - Coming to Alcoholics: The Next Step in Recovery
• (00:01:03) - Can We Ever Come Home?
• (00:02:11) - Alcoholics on the Recovery Process
• (00:06:04) - Tom Rutledge: The Key to Life
• (00:08:55) - The Value of Listening
• (00:14:38) - Tom and Alan on Their Most Toxic Relationship
• (00:17:36) - Non-Judgmental Musings for 12 Step Life
• (00:23:43) - Know the Meaning of Your Life
• (00:24:53) - Should We Suspend Our Judgment of Trump?
• (00:30:29) - Open Minds on the Divorce
• (00:34:43) - Can I Be Active Azealously?