In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John turn their focus to one of the most critical and misunderstood leadership capabilities for middle managers: influence. Building on the previous conversation about the pressures and possibilities of middle management, they explore why influence—not authority, control, or coercion—is the currency that allows leaders to move people, ideas, and organizations forward in today’s fast-moving workplace.

The conversation begins by distinguishing influence from power. Josh and John argue that modern organizations can no longer rely on positional authority or top-down control to drive results. As work becomes faster, flatter, and more relational, managers must learn how to influence through trust, credibility, and care. Influence, they emphasize, is inseparable from development. Leaders who approach management as a way to grow people, rather than extract output, are far more likely to earn followership and sustain performance.

The episode introduces a set of nine common influence styles, not as a hierarchy of good and bad behaviors, but as tools that can be used wisely or poorly depending on motive, context, and overuse. From data-driven rational appeals to relational, values-based, and personal appeals, Josh and John unpack how each style works, where it can be effective, and how it can break down when leaders rely on it too heavily or without self-awareness.

Throughout the discussion, they return to a central theme: posture matters. Influence that is rooted in control, avoidance, or self-protection is often sensed, even if it sounds supportive on the surface. By contrast, influence grounded in genuine care for another person’s growth creates trust, accountability, and learning. The episode challenges managers to examine not just how they influence, but why.

The conversation closes with a reframing of influence as an ongoing practice rather than a momentary tactic. Effective influence begins long before a decision is announced. It is built through curiosity, listening, understanding people’s motivations, and asking better questions. When leaders invest in knowing their people and their organization deeply, influence becomes more natural, adaptive, and human.

• Influence is more effective than authority in modern organizations, especially for middle managers operating without full control or decision-making power.
• Leadership influence is inseparable from development. People are more likely to follow leaders they respect, trust, and believe are invested in their growth.
• There are multiple influence styles, and no single approach works in every situation. Over-reliance on one style often creates blind spots.
• Posture matters as much as technique. Influence rooted in care and accountability feels different than influence driven by control or convenience.
• Asking thoughtful questions is often more powerful than issuing directives when it comes to motivating and aligning others.

Take time this week to reflect on your default influence style. Consider which approaches you rely on most and where that reliance may be limiting your effectiveness. Identify one influence style you tend to underuse and experiment with it intentionally in an upcoming conversation. Pay attention not just to outcomes, but to how people respond and what it reveals about trust and connection.

In the Season Two premiere of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John return to the core reason this podcast exists: the often overlooked and overburdened role of the middle manager. Instead of starting the year with goals or resolutions, they examine a more urgent question facing organizations today—why middle management has become a major driver of disengagement, burnout, and organizational underperformance.

The conversation centers on a striking reality. While middle managers have the greatest influence on employee engagement, only a small percentage of them report being engaged themselves. This disconnect points to a systemic issue rather than individual failure. Managers are expected to execute strategy without shaping it, lead people without sufficient support, and drive engagement while carrying increasing pressure from all sides.

Josh and John challenge how organizations typically respond to engagement problems. Too often, companies bypass managers by adding new initiatives, surveys, or programs instead of investing in manager development. This approach compounds the problem by increasing workload and stress without strengthening leadership capacity.

They also explore why traditional management training falls short. Many programs focus on process and compliance while neglecting the identity shift required to move from individual contributor to people developer. Leadership, they argue, is less about passing along directives and more about cultivating trust, clarity, and growth.

The episode closes with a call for both personal responsibility and organizational reflection. Healthy workplaces are built when managers are developed, supported, and trusted to do the relational work leadership requires. This conversation sets the foundation for Season Two, which will move from diagnosing the problem to offering practical solutions.

• Middle managers play the most influential role in engagement but are often the least supported and least developed.
• Engagement issues are rarely solved through broad initiatives and are most effectively addressed through manager development.
• Transactional cultures undermine trust, while relational leadership builds sustainable performance.
• Psychological safety for managers is essential for psychological safety across teams.
• Leadership development requires mindset and identity growth, not just technical skill building.

Before setting new goals this year, pause and assess whether you—or the managers you support—are truly equipped for the role being asked of you. Reflect on clarity of expectations, access to development, and whether people leadership is being treated as a core responsibility or an afterthought. Start there before adding new initiatives.

• Gallup workplace engagement research
• Harvard Business Review research on psychological safety

In the last of our Season 1 Redux - the Best of 2025 - we are re-sharing an episode all about a Development System: The Development Square.

We know that organizations who value development approach it systematically. It cannot be an idea, concept or belief by itself. It requires a paradigm and framework.

If you are going into 2026 with goals for greater success in people development, this is a must-listen.

Starting the week of January 12th, we'll be sharing out new episodes from Season 2!

Original Episode Description Below:

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dive deeper into their ongoing series on developing others, introducing a practical and powerful framework known as the Development Square from The Voice-Driven Leader by Jeremie Kubicek and Steve Cockram.

Building on last week’s conversation about mindset (“To Me” vs. “By Me”), this episode explores how leaders can translate self-awareness into actionable systems for developing people. The duo walk through the four stages of development—Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, and Multiplication—and unpack how each represents a distinct phase of learning and growth.

Josh explains how the model builds on Maslow’s hierarchy of competence (from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence) and helps leaders identify where each team member is on their learning journey. Together, they emphasize that development is not an event—it’s a continual process of awareness, feedback, and adaptation.

They also highlight the emotional side of development: the “pit of despair” when confidence collapses, and the “green room” where skill mastery can become comfort or complacency. Through humor, stories, and practical examples—from new teachers to medical dramas—Josh and John make the case that great leaders must not only recognize these stages but actively guide others through them.

1. Development isn’t management—and it isn’t an event. True growth is woven into daily leadership, not reserved for workshops or annual reviews.

2. Everyone learns differently. What worked for you may not work for them. Development requires empathy, flexibility, and intentionality.

3. The Four Stages of Development:

   • Foundation (Unconscious Incompetence): “I do, you watch.” Excitement is high, competence is low.

   • Immersion (Conscious Incompetence): “I do, you help.” Mistakes rise, confidence dips—learning begins.

   • Empowerment (Conscious Competence): “You do, I help.” Skill is growing, autonomy increases.

   • Multiplication (Unconscious Competence): “You do, I watch.” Mastery emerges—and it’s time to develop others.

4. Beware the “pit of despair.” When confidence collapses, leaders must support—not rescue—those they lead.

5. Don’t get stuck in the “green room.” Competence can lead to complacency; stretch high performers by challenging them to multiply others.

6. Your mindset still drives your method. Even with a strong framework, self-preservation and ego can derail development. Stay other-oriented.

Think about one person you’re developing right now—a colleague, direct report, or team member.

• Identify which stage of development they’re currently in: Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, or Multiplication.

• Ask yourself: What do they need from me at this stage?

  • More modeling and demonstration?

  • Shoulder-to-shoulder feedback?

  • Space to practice with support?

  • Stretch opportunities to mentor others?

• Bonus reflection: Where are you in your own development journey—and what kind of support would help you grow next?

• The Voice-Driven Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

• The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

• The Drama Triangle — Dr. Stephen Karpman

• Sacred Hoops — Phil Jackson (with Hugh Delehanty)

• Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, & Kaley Warner Klemp

• The Pit (TV Series) — referenced as an analogy for teaching and skill progression