Episodi

  • When the Life You Built No Longer Fits: Identity Patterns and the Invisible Ceiling

    When the Life You Built No Longer Fits: Identity Patterns and the Invisible Ceiling
    Sep 21 2026
    Send us a Message to connect What happens when the life you have worked so hard to build still looks successful from the outside—but no longer feels like it fits who you are?In this solo episode of Growing Tall Poppies: Thrive After Trauma, Dr Nat Green shares a surprisingly emotional moment that occurred while completing an overseas entry card. After 35 years of automatically writing “psychologist” as her occupation, she suddenly found herself staring at that small box and wondering what to write.Although her decision not to renew her psychology registration had been informed and intentional, letting go of the professional title revealed something much deeper: changing what we do and changing who we understand ourselves to be are not quite the same thing.Our circumstances may change quickly, while our identity takes much longer to catch up.This experience is not limited to career change. It can happen when you have become the person everyone relies upon, when your idea of success no longer feels fulfilling, or when you know you are capable of more but keep delaying the very step that would move you forward.You may appear capable, successful and highly motivated while privately feeling restless, depleted or disconnected from your own life. You might find yourself endlessly preparing, seeking another qualification, refining the plan or filling every available space with something else that needs to be done.From the outside, it can look like procrastination or self-sabotage.But something deeper may be happening.In this episode, Dr Nat explores how protective identity patterns develop to help us belong, cope and feel safe—and how the very patterns that once helped us build a successful life can eventually become an Invisible Ceiling.You’ll discover:Why a role or career can remain deeply embedded in your identity even after you have chosen to leave it.How the “responsible one,” the “strong one” and the high achiever can become trapped by the identities that once helped them succeed.Why being needed may feel safer than allowing other people to share the load.How perfectionism, over-preparing and procrastination can protect us from the vulnerability of being seen.Why high performers often don’t have a motivation problem—they have a safety problem.How protective identity patterns can quietly limit what you feel safe to want, receive and hold.Why outgrowing an identity does not mean rejecting everything that came before.How to begin creating room for more of who you are now.This episode invites you to consider:Where am I still functioning well but no longer feeling fulfilled?Which role or way of being has become so entwined with my identity that I struggle to imagine myself without it?What part of my life no longer quite fits the person I am becoming?You don’t need to have your next chapter completely mapped out. Sometimes change begins by acknowledging that something which once fitted no longer does—and becoming curious about what might fit now.Explore Your Invisible CeilingIf you can feel that something is keeping you stuck, even though you know you are capable of more, join Dr Nat for the upcoming Invisible Ceiling Masterclass.You’ll explore how protective identity patterns develop, why they can continue shaping your choices even after you have done a great deal of inner work, and how they may be influencing what you feel safe to want, receive and hold.You’ll also begin to understand your own Archetypes of Transformation™ and the role they may be playing in how you approach change, visibility, responsibility and growth.Reserve your place in the Invisible Ceiling MasterclassConnect with Dr Nat:Website: https://drnataliegreen.com.au/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ Archetypes of Transformation™ Quiz: https://quiz.drnataliegreen.com.au/archetype-of-transformation-quiz And remember: you were never meant to cut yourself down to make other people comfortable.There is always room to grow tall and shine brightly. If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreenIntro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
    Mostra di più Mostra meno
    30 min
  • Learning to Stand Tall When the Life You Knew Falls Apart with Lee Ehlers

    Learning to Stand Tall When the Life You Knew Falls Apart with Lee Ehlers
    Sep 14 2026

    Send us a Message to connect

    Have you ever felt the ground shift beneath you when someone you love is suddenly gone? How do you carry grief, responsibility, and your own dreams all at once — without losing yourself?

    In this deeply honest conversation, Dr Nat sits with Lee Ehlers, a screenwriter and father who faced the devastating loss of his wife Erin during the realization of a lifelong dream. Lee shares moments of raw grief, the chaos of parenting through loss, and the unspoken struggles behind pursuing creative success amid personal trauma. What does it truly mean to find new identity and purpose when everything you thought defined you has changed?

    This episode explores the complex intersection of grief and identity, how creative passion can both challenge and support healing, and what it means to move forward without shrinking or hiding after devastating loss.

    If you’ve been feeling overwhelmed by grief, frustration, or isolation as you try to navigate life’s unexpected changes, this conversation is an invitation to reflect and find spaciousness amidst the chaos.

    In this episode we explore:

    • What it’s like to lose a lifelong partner and to parent through terminal illness and the hidden emotional turmoil this brings
    • How grief manifests as chaos rather than a single emotion, shaping each day unpredictably
    • The challenge of parenting children who all grieve in different ways while managing your own pain
    • The judgment and misconceptions people project on how grief “should” look or be managed
    • The long, winding journey from a stable career to pursuing a creative passion through rejection and isolation
    • How shifting perspective on both grief and ambition can open the way to embodied growth and connection


    Key Takeaways

    • Grief is not a linear process but a messy, chaotic presence that requires gentle permission rather than control
    • Holding space for all your identities to evolve instead of forcing a return to the “old self” is essential post-trauma
    • Creative passion can be a lifeline but also exposes vulnerability and requires resilience to external doubts
    • Break down overwhelming change into manageable moments to simply get through the day, not the rest of your life
    • Authentic connection and collaboration in your creative work can create meaning beyond success metrics

    A Question To Reflect On

    How do you carry grief, responsibility, and your own dreams all at once — without losing yourself?

    You may have been trying to “manage” or “fight through” grief and change, but this episode invites you to practice gentleness, spaciousness, and acceptance as you stand tall in your new reality.

    If this episode resonated with you...

    If you've been doing the inner work but still feel like something is quietly holding you back, it may not be a lack of motivation, confidence or willpower.

    It may be that your identity is still organised around survival.

    That's exactly why Dr Nat created her Archetypes of Transformation(tm) and Invisible Ceiling Assessment(tm) - to help you begin recognising the unconscious patterns, identity fractures and protective strategies that may be keeping you from fully stepping into the life that's waiting for you.

    Take the free quiz here: https://quiz.drnataliegreen.com.au/archetype-of-transformation-quiz

    You'll find Lee Ehlers here: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm5075943/


    If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen

    Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

    Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
    Mostra di più Mostra meno
    46 min
  • Late-Diagnosed AuDHD: Masking, Trauma, & Finally Finding Your Authentic Self with Ellie Capstick

    Late-Diagnosed AuDHD: Masking, Trauma, & Finally Finding Your Authentic Self with Ellie Capstick
    Sep 7 2026
    Send us a Message to connect What happens when you spend most of your life believing there is something wrong with you — only to discover that your brain simply works differently?In this episode of Growing Tall Poppies, Dr Nat Green sits down with Ellie Capstick, AuDHD educator, podcast host and founder of Ellie AuDHD, for a raw, funny and deeply honest conversation about late-diagnosed neurodivergence, trauma, masking, identity and the extraordinary relief that can come from finally understanding yourself.For much of her life, Ellie felt different. Long before she understood that she was both autistic and ADHD — commonly described as AuDHD — she had accumulated other labels: too much, lazy, strange, obsessive, difficult. Like many late-diagnosed neurodivergent adults, particularly women, she became skilled at adapting herself to the people and environments around her.But when you spend years learning how to fit in, an important question can eventually emerge:Who are you underneath all the masks?Ellie shares candidly about growing up with childhood trauma, navigating relationships without strong boundaries, using alcohol and substances to cope socially, raising neurodivergent children before she understood her own neurodivergence, and the grief and relief that followed diagnosis.She also explains AuDHD in her wonderfully irreverent way — describing her ADHD and autism as two very different characters trying to coexist inside the same brain — and explores why understanding neurodivergence isn't about putting someone into a box. Sometimes the right label can finally replace all the painful ones a person has carried for years.We also explore the complicated intersection between trauma and neurodivergence. While trauma does not cause ADHD or autism, trauma responses and neurodivergent traits can sometimes overlap, particularly when it comes to masking, people-pleasing, self-esteem and the ways we learn to survive socially.Ellie also shares an important message for parents raising neurodivergent children: rather than teaching children to hide the things that make them different, we can help them understand their own brains, build confidence and develop a toolbox that actually works for them.Today, Ellie has created a rapidly growing community where tens of thousands of neurodivergent people can ask questions, share experiences and discover that perhaps they were never as alone — or as “wrong” — as they once believed.And when Dr Nat asks what her younger self would think of the woman she has become, Ellie offers perhaps the most powerful reflection of the entire conversation:“I found my authentic self, and I love her, and I’ve never loved me before.”In this episode, we explore:What AuDHD means and what it can feel like to live with both autism and ADHDThe relief, grief and validation that can accompany a late ADHD or autism diagnosisWhy neurodivergent people may spend years believing there is something “wrong” with themNeurodivergent masking and what can happen when you've adapted for so long that you no longer know what you genuinely like or wantThe intersection — and important distinction — between trauma and neurodivergencePeople-pleasing, boundaries, relationships and vulnerabilityWhy Ellie doesn't necessarily describe neurodivergence as a “superpower”Raising and empowering neurodivergent childrenWhy understanding your neurotype can provide a completely different toolbox for navigating lifeFinding community, belonging and your authentic identity after years of feeling differentWhy it is never too late to understand yourself differentlyThis is a conversation about far more than ADHD and autism. It's about what can happen when the story you've carried about yourself for decades finally begins to change — and you discover that understanding who you are can be the beginning of becoming more fully yourself.About Ellie CapstickEllie Capstick is an AuDHD educator, podcast host and founder of Ellie AuDHD. Through lived experience, practical education and refreshingly honest conversations, she helps neurodivergent people better understand themselves and feel less alone.She is also the host of the AuDHD and Then Some podcast, where she explores ADHD, autism, trauma, burnout, masking, relationships and the realities of living as a late-diagnosed neurodivergent adult.Ellie has built a rapidly growing online community of tens of thousands of people, creating an inclusive space for neurodivergent adults and families to connect, learn and find the kind of understanding she wished she had growing up.Connect with Ellie One link for everything: https://www.ellieaudhd.com If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://...
    Mostra di più Mostra meno
    54 min
  • Tall Poppy Syndrome: Why You Were Never Meant To Stay Small

    Tall Poppy Syndrome: Why You Were Never Meant To Stay Small
    Aug 31 2026

    Send us a Message to connect

    What if tall poppy syndrome isn’t only about other people cutting us down? What if we have also learned to cut ourselves down before anybody else gets the chance?

    We minimise our achievements, soften our opinions, deflect compliments, hide our ambition and wait for permission. We remain indispensable behind the scenes while making ourselves invisible at the front.

    These behaviours are often mistaken for humility or a lack of confidence. But sometimes, being seen has never felt safe.

    In this solo episode, Dr Nat Green shares the deeper meaning behind Growing Tall Poppies and explores how fear of visibility, nervous-system safety and identity patterns can quietly keep capable people playing small.

    You’ll discover:

    • Why visibility and success can feel threatening
    • How shrinking can become a way of maintaining safety, approval and belonging
    • Why protective identity patterns can eventually become an invisible ceiling
    • How to become more visible without forcing yourself to be the loudest person in the room
    • Why supporting someone else’s success does not diminish your own

    Standing tall does not mean believing you are better than anyone else. It means no longer believing you must be less.

    The answer to tall poppy syndrome is not fewer tall poppies. It is a field where all of us are allowed to grow.

    Listen now and consider: Where in your life are you ready to stop cutting yourself down?

    Take the Archetypes of Transformation™ Quiz here to disciver your Archetype and see how your patterns are showing up for you.

    If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen

    Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

    Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
    Mostra di più Mostra meno
    31 min
  • When Survival Becomes an Identity: Finding Your Way Back to Yourself with Mary Armendarez

    When Survival Becomes an Identity: Finding Your Way Back to Yourself with Mary Armendarez
    Aug 24 2026

    Send us a Message to connect

    Have you noticed how trauma or hardship can leave you feeling stuck in survival mode - not fully present, with layers of anger, grief, or fear bubbling beneath the surface? What if thriving after trauma isn’t about fixing yourself or “getting back” to who you once were, but about embracing who you are now with compassion and clarity?

    In this deeply honest conversation, Dr Nat welcomes Mary Armendarez, an author and emotional healing guide, who shares how her life shifted when her husband’s stroke pulled the rug out from under her spiritual work. Mary reveals the profound process of stepping out of ego-driven coping and into a new level of self-awareness, forgiveness, and nervous system regulation. Together they unpack simple yet powerful daily practices, like grounding with “rubyred” energy and wearing a “violet hat” of transformation that helped Mary reclaim calm, self-trust, and purpose. What would it mean for you to gently call back your scattered energy and quiet the monkey mind, so you can begin living from a place of safety and presence?

    This episode explores identity fractures after trauma, the role of nervous system regulation in healing, and the courage needed to forgive even what feels unforgivable - as a way to reclaim power and peace. If you’ve been feeling overwhelmed by fear, stuck in old survival patterns, or disconnected from your body and joy, this conversation is an invitation to pause and reflect.

    In this episode, we explore:

    • How trauma can pull us back into survival modes that hide deeper layers of anger and sorrow waiting to be acknowledged
    • The practice of grounding and calling back scattered energy using simple daily rituals like visualising “ruby red” and “violet” energies
    • Why healing is never about perfection or “getting back” but about evolving your identity with self-respect and self-love
    • The role of nervous system regulation in breaking stress and burnout cycles and listening to the body’s signals before it breaks down
    • What stops many women from asking for help and how reclaiming worthiness can shift that dynamic
    • The power of connecting with your inner child as the doorway to intuition, healing, and reclaiming wholeness

    Key Takeaways

    • Post-traumatic growth means choosing presence and self-trust over ego-driven control and survival patterns
    • Healing is layered, ongoing, and requires gentle forgiveness even when it feels impossible
    • Simple, accessible grounding practices can transform chronic anxiety and help you feel safe in your body

    A Question To Reflect On

    • What would it look like for you to stop surviving and start choosing to live from a grounded, embodied, and peaceful place?

    If you’ve been holding onto old fears and patterns of control, this episode invites you to step into self-forgiveness, presence, and the simplicity of being here now.

    If this episode resonated with you...
    If you've been doing the inner work but still feel like something is quietly holding you back, it may not be a lack of motivation, confidence or willpower. It may be that your identity is still organised around survival. That's exactly why Dr Nat created her Archetypes of Transformation(tm) and Invisible Ceiling
    Assessment (tm) - to help you begin recognising the unconscious patterns, identity fractures and protective strategies that may be keeping you from fully stepping into the life that's waiting for you.

    Take the free quiz here:

    https://quiz.drnataliegreen.com.au/archetype-of-transformation-quiz

    You'll find MaryArmendarez here:

    Website: https://maryarmendarez.com

    TikTok: @maryarmendarez

    If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen

    Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

    Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
    Mostra di più Mostra meno
    55 min
  • She Taught Me Why the Ordinary Days Are Everything: A Tribute to My Beautiful Friend Narelle

    She Taught Me Why the Ordinary Days Are Everything: A Tribute to My Beautiful Friend Narelle
    Aug 17 2026

    Send us a Message to connect

    This episode is a little different.

    In Episode 111, I spoke about two beautiful friends facing very different battles. One of those friends was Narelle — my beautiful friend of more than twenty years, who had been living with cancer for over a decade.

    Narelle has since passed away.

    But in this deeply personal episode, I don't want to tell you the story of how Narelle died. I want to tell you a little about how she lived.

    About the woman behind the cancer — the friend, the nurse, the dedicated mum, the woman with the enormous smile and infectious laugh who never went without her lippy and the woman who became woven into our family's life for more than two decades.

    This episode is also an honest reflection on grief — including the grief that comes before loss, the extraordinary privilege and heartbreak of walking beside someone during the final part of their life, and the strange dissonance of stepping back outside into a world carrying on with its perfectly ordinary day while you're carrying something enormous inside you.

    I also share something deeply personal about the way our nervous systems can hold the stories of previous losses, and how something happening today can unexpectedly touch a place inside us where another goodbye still lives.

    Love can touch love. Loss can touch loss.

    But woven through all of this is something Narelle has left me thinking about deeply:

    The ordinary days.

    The coffees. The sunrises. The laughter. The conversations. Sitting at the lighthouse. The moments we barely notice while we're living them, never imagining that one day we might give anything to experience them just one more time.

    This isn't an invitation to live perfectly or to seize every moment.

    It's simply an invitation to be here for more of it.

    Make the phone call. Have the damn coffee. Take the damn photo. Sit at the lighthouse a little longer. Tell the people you love what they mean to you while they're still here to hear it.

    Because perhaps the ordinary days aren't what happen in between the important moments.

    Perhaps the ordinary days are everything.

    This episode is for you, Narelle.

    Thank you for the extraordinary privilege of being your friend.

    With all my love. Dr Nat xx

    If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen

    Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

    Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
    Mostra di più Mostra meno
    38 min
  • In the Presence of Excellence: Powerful on the Outside, Quietly Unravelling Within

    In the Presence of Excellence: Powerful on the Outside, Quietly Unravelling Within
    Aug 10 2026

    Send us a Message to connect

    What happens when a woman who has spent her entire life producing excellence at the world's highest level suddenly finds herself quietly unravelling?

    In this episode, Dr Nat Green sits down with Stacey Nye - a remarkable woman who grew up in an Olympic household, built a 20-year international career producing some of the world's greatest sporting events, and then one night, had everything turned upside down in an instant.

    Stacey spent six years navigating trauma, financial loss, the end of a 20-year marriage, and singlemotherhood - all while presenting a perfectly composed exterior to the world. Sound familiar? Then she sat in a chair across from Daniel Flear, founder of The F.I.X. Code Technique. Five minuteslater, she walked out a different woman. And she's never looked back.

    In this conversation, Stacey shares:

    • What it was really like to grow up in an Olympic household and how it shaped her belief that anything is possible
    • The night a traumatic accident turned her world upside down and the six years of quietly unravelling that followed
    • How she discovered The F.I.X. Code Technique and why she immediately knew: this isexcellence
    • What actually happens in a F.I.X. Code extraction and why it works so fast
    • How parasitic programmes enter the body during shock and how the technique disconnects them
    • Why high-functioning, high-achieving women are uniquely suited to benefit from this work
    • How the technique is being used by CEOs, pro athletes, and practitioners around the world
    • Where to access a complimentary session and how to begin

    This conversation is full of warmth, honesty, and practical hope. If you've ever wondered why healingsometimes feels so slow — this episode might just change your perspective.

    Connect with Stacey Nye

    Website: https://www.thefixcode.com/

    Complimentary session: https://academy.thefixcode.com/Practitioner-Experience-opt-in


    If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen

    Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

    Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
    Mostra di più Mostra meno
    51 min
  • When Was The Last Time You Felt Like Yourself? Maybe Coming Home Isn't About A Place

    When Was The Last Time You Felt Like Yourself? Maybe Coming Home Isn't About A Place
    Aug 3 2026

    Send us a Message to connect

    When was the last time you truly felt like yourself?

    Not the version of you that's constantly managing responsibilities, meeting expectations or holding everything together.

    The real you.

    In this deeply personal episode, Dr Nat shares the unexpected experience of returning to the regional country town where she grew up after travelling home for a funeral. What she thought would be a whirlwind visit became something much more profound—a reminder that sometimes coming home isn't about returning to a place at all. Sometimes it's about returning to yourself.

    As she sat beside a quiet river, breathed in the fresh country air and allowed herself to simply be, she noticed something shift. Her nervous system softened. The constant pressure to keep doing dissolved, even if only for a little while. And in that space came an important question:

    How many of us have quietly drifted away from ourselves without even realising it?

    This episode explores why so many high-functioning women can feel disconnected from themselves despite outward success, why our nervous systems often tell us we're safe only when we're productive, and why the journey back to ourselves is often much gentler than we imagine.

    If you've been feeling exhausted, disconnected, overwhelmed or like you've lost sight of who you are beneath all the roles you carry, this conversation is an invitation to pause, breathe and remember yourself again.

    In this episode we explore:

    • Why coming home isn't always about returning to a place.
    • How your nervous system influences your sense of identity and belonging.
    • The subtle ways we can lose ourselves while simply trying to cope with life.
    • Why slowing down can feel unfamiliar, even uncomfortable.
    • The importance of creating moments where your nervous system feels safe enough to soften.
    • What it really means to come home to yourself.

    Key Takeaways

    • Quiet moments can reveal profound personal insights.
    • Returning to familiar places can reconnect us with our true selves.
    • Small, quiet shifts often indicate deep inner growth.
    • Practicing mindfulness and trauma release can facilitate healing.
    • Authentic self-connection is often found in simplicity.

    A Question To Reflect On

    When was the last time you truly felt like yourself?

    Not the version of you that's constantly doing...

    The version of you that simply gets to be.

    If this episode resonated with you...

    If you've been doing the inner work but still feel like something is quietly holding you back, it may not be a lack of motivation, confidence or willpower.

    It may be that your identity is still organised around survival.

    That's exactly why I created my Archetypes of Transformation™ and Invisible Ceiling Assessment™—to help you begin recognising the unconscious patterns, identity fractures and protective strategies that may be keeping you from fully stepping into the life that's waiting for you. Take the free Quiz here

    Because perhaps the person you're searching for isn't someone you need to become.

    Perhaps they're someone you've been finding your way back to all along.

    If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen

    Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

    Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
    Mostra di più Mostra meno
    18 min