“In teaching us to appreciate rather than accumulate – to seek awe rather than outcomes – travel can be an ongoing exercise in gratitude.” – Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf remixes his interview from the All the Hacks podcast, with Chris Hutchins. They discuss the concept of “Time Wealth,” how it can be actualized through travel, and how it can dovetail with your family and life goals (2:00); what kinds of travel-oriented experiences and attitudes and rituals can help you frame and identify your values and life-goals (10:30); how kids can be a window into new places as a traveler, and why slowing down and "seeing less" helps you experience more on the road (27:00); the limitations of planning your travels around a "Bucket List," and the merits of taking a travel attitude to your home environment (35:30); how to pack when traveling light, and how to use technology wisely on the road (45:30).

Chris Hutchins (Instagram: @chrishutchins) is an avid optimizer and host of a top-ranked podcast, where he shares his quest to upgrade his life without having to spend a fortune.

Notable Links:

• The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (books)
• Kevin Kelly (editor and futurist)
• Lyft (ride-hailing service)
• Die With Zero, by Bill Perkins (book)
• Carrefour (French convenience store)
• Zamalek (area of Cairo, Egypt)
• An Egyptian straight-razor shave in 21 easy steps (video)
• Jackfruit (food)
• Raclette (Swiss dish)
• Père Lachaise (cemetery in Paris)
• Frank Alamo (French singer)
• Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's writing classes)
• Canton (town in Mississippi)
• Lindsborg, Kansas ("Little Sweden")
• Zacatecas (state in Mexico)
• No Baggage Challenge (Rolf's 2010 no-luggage trip)
• AirTreks (round-the-world and multi-stop flight planner)
• Flâneur (urban wanderer)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

In this feature-length video essay that explores the role places play in storytelling, Rolf examines how Kansas -- his home state -- has been imagined, distorted, and mythologized in cinema and television for more than a century.

Blending archival film clips, historical analysis, and deeply personal narration, Kansas Never Plays Itself traces how cinematic shorthand shapes our collective imagination. The video essay invites viewers to reconsider what it means for a location to “play itself” — and what’s lost when the real landscapes and communities behind our most beloved stories remain unseen.

Sneak preview of the video essay is online here.

Chapters:

0:00 - Intro: Not in Kansas Any More

Movies and TV shows mentioned: The Wizard of Oz (1939); Showdown at Abilene (1956); Gunsmoke (1955-1975); Dances with Wolves (1990); Kansas (1995); Capote (2005); The English (2022).

2:00 - Part 1: No Place Like Home (or, Hollywood can’t tell the truth about places)

Movies and TV shows mentioned: Suits (2011); Law & Order: SVU (2006); Elementary (2019); The Affair (2014); Slumber (2017); Vancouver Never Plays Itself (2015); Los Angeles Plays Itself (2003); Panic in the Streets (1950); Wichita (1955); Stark: Mirror Image (1986); Seinfeld (1992); Planes, Trains and Automobiles (1987); The Ice Harvest (2005); The Beach (2000); Mutiny on the Bounty (1962); Brigadoon (1954); Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989); Star Wars: A New Hope (1977); Game of Thrones (2012); The Game Camera (2025).

15:05 - Part 2: Why Place Matters (or, The Wizard of Oz and Superman might be a little bit racist)

Movies and TV shows mentioned: The Wiz (1978); The Wizard of Oz (1933); The Wizard of Oz (1925); The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (1910); Oz the Great and Powerful (2013); Wicked (2024); Smallville (2001); Superman IV: The Quest For Peace (1987); Man of Steel (2013); The Music Man (1962); Meet Me in St. Louis (1944); Gone with the Wind (1939); Swing (1938); Birthright (1939); Lying Lips (1939); Shaft (1971); The Learning Tree (1969); Oscar Micheaux documentary (2021); Adventures of Superman (1952–1958); Superman (1978).

32:25 - Part 3: Why Location Matters (or, How movies lie when depicting places

Movies and TV shows mentioned: Office Space (1999); Swingers (1996); Little Shop of Horrors (1986); Avatar (2009); The Matrix (1999); The Breakfast Club (1985); Ferris Bueller’s Day Off (1986); Splendor in the Grass (1961); Picnic (1955); Stand by Me (1986); Kansas (1988); Paper Moon (1973); In Cold Blood (1967); In Cold Blood TV miniseries (1996); Capote (2005); Infamous (2006); Smoke Signals (1998); Geronimo (1962); Navajo Joe (1966); Masterson of Kansas (1954); Buffalo Dance (1894); Last of the Renegades (1964); “Keep America Beautiful” PSA (1971); In the Land of the Headhunters (1914); Among the Cannibal Isles of the South Pacific (1918); The Rider (2017); Reservation Dogs (2021-2023).

54:15 - Part 4: Why Kansas Matters (hint: it’s because all places matter)

“I’m interested in writing because I don’t want to sleepwalk through life. I feel like we have an appallingly brief time on earth, and we’re here to see and understand and do as much good as we can before we’re gone.” –Anthony Doerr

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Anthony talk about how the pace of travel changes the experience of travel, and what it’s like to travel as a writer (2:45); how to manage the local and the global, the specific and the universal, the concrete and the speculative, in one’s writing (12:30); how the idea of “home” influences one’s craft as a writer who travels (23:00); common mistakes writers make when writing about places and cultures they don’t know well, and humiliating travel (and book-tour) experiences (31:00).

Anthony Doerr is a novelist and essayist, and short story writer. His 2014 novel All the Light We Cannot See won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction, and was made into a Netflix miniseries in 2023.

Books and authors mentioned:

• Four Seasons in Rome, by Anthony Doerr (book)
• The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)
• Daniel Woodrell (novelist)
• Aimee Nezhukumatathil (poet and essayist)
• Benjamin Percy (author, essayist and comic book writer)
• Paul Theroux (travel writer and novelist)
• Bob Shacochis (novelist and literary journalist)
• Peter Hessler (travel writer and journalist)
• Tony D’Souza (novelist)
• Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book)
• Travels in Alaska, by John Muir (book)
• Lolita, by Vladimir Nabokov (book)
• Joseph Conrad (Polish-British novelist)
• Wade Davis (Canadian author and anthropologist)
• Jared Diamond (author and historian)
• Gina Ochsner (novelist and short story writer)

Other links:

• Downton Abbey (British historical drama TV series)
• “My Beirut Hostage Crisis,” by Rolf Potts (travel essay)
• “The Hunter’s Wife,” by Anthony Doerr (short story)
• “Querencia,” by Suzannah Lessard (New Yorker article)
• Querencia (Spanish mystical concept)
• Jardin des Plantes (botanical garden in Paris)
• Corsac fox (steppe fox found in Mongolia)
• <...

Note: This encore episode is dedicated to the memory of Alice Potts, who died on August 20, 2025, aged 81.

“In America aging is often seen as an insult rather than an inevitable human process. We don’t celebrate getting older; we ‘fight’ age by pretending to be young.” –Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate Rolf and his parents, Alice and George Potts, talk about how surviving the COVID-19 pandemic has changed their relationship, and how it gave them a pretext to go through a “death checklist” together (3:00); how one’s grandparents and parents live on in one’s memories and one’s conversations, the life-values they passed on, and what it felt like when those loved ones declined and died (14:00); how, over the years, elderly people and philosophers have come to terms with notions of decline and death (31:00); and personal insights about what it’s like to have grown older after having lived a long life (44:00).

George and Alice Potts are retired schoolteachers based in Kansas. George taught science at various Wichita high schools, as well as at Friends University, where he pioneered graduate-level programs in Zoo Science and Environmental Studies. He also helped facilitate the Outdoor Wildlife Learning Sites (OWLS) program for the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks. Alice taught second graders in the Wichita public schools for more than 30 years. In 1994 her classes succeed in promoting legislation to declare the barred tiger salamander the Kansas State Amphibian.

Notable Links:

• What to Do When a Loved One Dies (AARP death checklist)
• How we die in America (Deviate episode)
• The therapeutic uses of reading scripture (Deviate episode)
• On losing one’s parents to COVID-19 (Deviate episode)
• 1985 World Series (baseball championship)
• Joe Louis (20th century boxing champion)
• John Prine (singer-songwriter)
• Alzheimer’s disease (chronic neurodegenerative disease)
• You Are My Sunshine (folk song)
• Will You Miss Me When I’m Gone (folk song)
• Ecclesiastes (book in the Old Testament of the Bible)
• Epistle of James (book in the New Testament of the Bible)
• Crowfoot (19th century Siksika First Nation chief)
• Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber)
• Epicurus (ancient Greek philosopher)
• Varanasi (Hindu holy city in India)
• Lamentations 3:22-23 (Old Testament Bible verse)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of...

“No endeavor to write a travel book is ever lost, since it gives you a useful perspective on (and intensified attention to) the reality of the travel experience itself. When embraced mindfully, the real-time experience of a journey is invariably its truest reward.” –Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf touches on nine lessons from attempting to write a (never finished) van-life vagabonding memoir at age 23, including:

On Pilgrims in a Sliding World (1:00)

Lesson #1: No work is lost (and “failure” has lessons to teach)

On the author as a character (6:30)

Lesson #2: “Show, don’t tell” is still good narrative advice

On depicting other people (14:30)

Lesson #3: Travel books require reporting (not just recollecting)

On recounting dialogues (22:30)

Lesson #4: Be true to what was said (but make sure it serves a broader purpose)

On veering from the truth (32:30)

Lesson #5: The truth tends to work better than whatever you might make up

On depicting places (39:30)

Lesson #6: “Telling details” are better than broad generalizations about a place

On neurotic young-manhood (48:30)

Lesson #7: Balance narrative analysis with narrative vulnerability

The seeds of Vagabonding (1:01:30)

Lesson #8: Over time, we write our way into what we have to say

The journey was the point (1:06:30)

Lesson #9: In the end, taking the journey counts for more than writing it

Books mentioned:

• The Geto Boys, by Rolf Potts (2016 book)
• Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (2003 book)
• The Anxiety of Influence, by Harold Bloom (1973 book)
• On the Road, by Jack Kerouac (1957 book)
• The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D. Salinger (1951 book)
• Epic of Gilgamesh (12th century BCE Mesopotamian epic)
• Don Quixote, by Miguel de Cervantes (17th century novel)
• The Travels of Sir John Mandeville (14th century travelogue)
• True History, by Lucian of Samosata (2nd century novella)
• Three Cups of Tea, by Greg Mortenson (21st century memoir)
• Marco Polo Didn't Go There, by Rolf Potts (2008 book)
• Labels: A Mediterranean Journal, by Evelyn Waugh (1930 book)

Essays, poems, and short stories mentioned...

“Realizing that you will die greatly clarifies your vision of life, and stimulates opportunities for making the vision real.” –Ed Buryn

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ed discuss the impetus behind Ed’s first travels to Europe by van in the 1960s, and his early forays into self-printed and self-promoted books about the experience (3:00); how travel to Europe was different 50 years ago, and the joy and freedom that comes with not knowing what happens next (14:30); Ed’s philosophies and influences, including living in “the now” (21:00); how travel allows you to reinvent yourself, and how meeting people is the best gift of travel (36:00); and Ed’s ambitions for poetry and travel, and his advice to travelers in today’s world (44:30).

Ed Buryn is an author and photographer who was one of the first to popularize the term “vagabonding” through the publication of his books Vagabonding In Europe and North America and Vagabonding in America. For more about Ed, check out https://edburyn.com.

Notable Links:

• Kevin Kelly (writer, editor, and publisher)
• Tony Wheeler (founder of Lonely Planet travel guides)
• Bill Dalton (founder of Moon travel guides)
• Charles Plymell on the Beat Generation (Deviate episode)
• The Drifters, by James Michener (book)
• Zorba the Greek, by Nikos Kazantzakis (book)
• Henry Miller (author)
• CouchSurfing ((homestay and social networking service)
• Richard Halliburton (traveler and author)
• Tarot (playing cards used for divination)
• Nevada City (community in northern California)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"No one motivation is ‘better’ than any other. We travel with different motivations at different times, and they sometimes overlap." –Ash Bhardwaj

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ash talk about curiosity as a motivation for travel (1:30); the ancient Greek concepts of happiness that underpin human motivations like travel, and how mentors influence travel (14:00); serendipity as a motivation for travel, Type One versus Type Two fun, and the dangers of "voluntourism" (21:00); how "awe" differs from "wonder," how to bring these perspectives home, and how "eroticism" can be a part of travel (36:30); "grief travel," and how one's sense for travel can become intertwined with a sense of hope (48:30).

Ash Bhardwaj is an award-winning journalist and broadcaster, and the author of Why We Travel.

Notable Links:

• Paris travel memoir workshop, with Rolf Potts (creative writing class)
• Banana Pancake Trail (backpacker route in Southeast Asia)
• Hedonism (philosophical concept involving pleasure)
• Eudaimonia (philosophical concept involving happiness)
• A Moveable Feast (posthumous memoir by Ernest Hemingway)
• Georges Perec (French novelist)
• Beginner's Mind (Zen Buddhist concept)
• Levison Wood (British explorer)
• Arsenal F.C. (English soccer team)
• Joseph Kony (Ugandan warlord)
• Flow (focused mental state)
• Mihály Csíkszentmihályi (Hungarian-American psychologist)
• NGO (non-governmental aid organizations)
• Air Vanuatu (national airline in the South Pacific)
• Hokitika (town in New Zealand)
• Pounamu (stone valued by the Māori)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30).

Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center.

Notable Links:

• 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class)
• Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes)
• Before Sunrise (1995 movie)
• Before Sunset (2004 movie)
• Ethan Hawke (American actor and director)
• Julie Delpy (French actress and director)
• Richard Linklater (American filmmaker)
• Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre)
• Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay)
• BritRail (train pass in the UK)
• London A-Z (street atlas)
• Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band)
• Wembley Stadium (London venue)
• Continuous partial attention (behavior)
• Slacker (1990 film)
• Dazed and Confused (1993 film)
• Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist)
• Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries)
• The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf)