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In this crossover episode of Rewired x Early Access, Jeff sits down with Katie Whitlock to reflect on what has emerged after months of interviewing Enneagram voices under 35. What begins as a behind-the-scenes conversation quickly becomes a deeper examination of how listening—real listening—reshapes both teaching and understanding.

Katie shares what surprised her most as an interviewer: that one-on-one conversations were easier than expected, that people speak about their inner worlds with remarkable clarity when given space, and that the Enneagram begins to change once you stop talking long enough to hear how others describe themselves. Along the way, she reflects on how this process forced her to confront her own habits as a Type Three, learning to step back, listen more carefully, and teach from lived patterns rather than rehearsed explanations.

Together, Jeff and Katie explore how stereotypes begin to break down when you attend not just to behavior or stated motivation, but to patterns—how people speak, where their attention goes, and the inconsistencies between how they describe themselves and how they move through the world. They discuss why newer students often over-type too quickly, why mature learning leads to a season of “I don’t know,” and why that valley is not failure but growth.

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We land the plane on our stance series by wrestling with the language for Fours, Fives, and Nines.

Starting with Karen Horney’s “detached,” David Daniels’ “receptive/internalizing,” Suzanne Stabile’s “withdrawn,” and Joey Schewee’s “solitary,” they trace the history of stance, sift the pros and cons of each term, and ultimately make a case for why “withdrawn” still does the best work.

Along the way they explore how 4s, 5s, and 9s use imagination, creativity, and internal processing to get what they want, why “doing repression” has to stay central, and how stance fits into Jeff’s bigger map: center → stance → affect → processing center in a looping feedback cycle. If you’re a 4, 5, or 9 (or love one), this episode will give you sharper language for what’s happening inside when you “check out,” and why that inner move matters so much for real-world action.