Season two is a wrap. In the finale it's just us, Aaron and Ben, rewinding the so what season: our favourite moments, the surprises, and the guests who gave us tears, both the sad kind and the laughing kind.

We talk about sitting back at the table with Dr Lynn Moresi, the fan girl moment of the 1946 episode, the conversion therapy Tims, Matt Glover still refusing to admit he took a stand, the David Gushee moment that made Ben cry on air forthe first time, a listener story that sums up why we do this, Gaz and Jesse's laugh out loud episode, and what season three might look like.

And to every listener, especially the silent ones: thank you. You're the reason we do this.

We're taking a break and will be back with season three in 2027. Go back and catch up on any episode you missed.

Queerfully Made is the podcast exploring the intersection of faith, sexuality and gender, hosted by Aaron Kelly and Ben Nicholson in Naarm/Melbourne.

If this episode brings things up, QLife (1800 184 527) offers free LGBTIQ+ peer support across Australia.

Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez spent eight years in conversion therapy with Exodus International while doing social media and marketing for some of the biggest churches in the world, including Willow Creek, the Global Leadership Summit and Hillsong.We talk Hillsong's chair trick (and Bobbie's comment), the job offer that came with a celibacy condition, the Mark Driscoll arena that broke him, his first gay Christian conference, taking communion after ten years, worship music as reclamation, sobriety, the Lost Boys, and his message to pastors still sending young people to conversion practices.Timothy's book Conversion Therapy Dropout is out now: www.conversiontherapydropoutbook.comMentioned: our episode with Professor Timothy Jones on Australia's research into conversion practices.Queerfully Made is the podcast exploring the intersection of faith, sexuality and gender, hosted by Aaron Kelly and Ben Nicholson in Naarm/Melbourne.Follow Timothy: @timothy.s.rodriguez)If this episode brings things up, QLife (1800 184 527) offers free LGBTIQ+ peer support across Australia.Chapters00:00 Cold open00:32 Acknowledgement of Country01:15 Welcome Timothy02:53 Hillsong's chairs and Bobbie's comment08:42 Working at Hillsong while out11:31 The job offer with a celibacy condition15:13 Eight years in conversion therapy19:57 The last Exodus conference and burnout22:11 Mark Driscoll and a breakdown23:39 His first gay Christian conference27:39 Communion after ten years29:41 Religious trauma and worship music35:28 Finding a church that fits37:36 Shame, sobriety and God on the dance floor40:23 Too gay for the church, too Christian for the gays43:59 Why he wrote the book48:02 Back at Hillsong49:38 Ministry looks different now53:38 To the kid still in church54:57 To the pastor57:46 Where to find the book

From altar boy to Drag Race, Karen From Finance has been questioning structure his whole life.

Richard Chadwick grew up Catholic, served as an altar boy alongside Cardinal George Pell, and lost his mum to breast cancer at 14. When his school wouldn't let him ask why, he started questioning everything, and that road led him straight into drag.

Melbourne's premier corporate queen joins Aaron and Ben for a conversation that's equal parts tender and unhinged.

What we get into:

→ How being queer taught him to question structure (and why that led to drag)

→ Serving mass with Cardinal Pell, and how it felt when the news came out

→ Grief, God's plan and a Catholic school that stopped taking his questions

→ How Karen From Finance was born from an op shop prom dress

→ Why drag doesn't hide who you are, it reveals it

→ Calling out a transphobic auntie on Facebook

→ Nana, a pack of cigarettes and a certificate from Pride class

→ Internalised homophobia 20 years after coming out

→ His faith now: respect, admiration and why it's not for him

→ Mortein flamethrowers, Body Electric and Microsoft 365

You can't be what you can't see.

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Pastor David Landis Morse has been a Brethren kid in Tasmania, worked at Koorong, and become a Uniting Church pastor. He came out as a bisexual man later in life, and this conversation is warm, funny and honest.

Aaron and Ben talk with David about growing up in a high-certainty church, coming out to his family, what bi privilege looks like, and who fought for the ground he stands on. We also get into inclusion training for church leaders, what it might look like if the church led with fullness of life instead of being dragged along, a smaller church with a freer voice, and why David thinks conversion never stops.

David is a pastor in the Uniting Church in Melbourne with a masters in theology focused on queer theology and hospitality.

"What sort of energy is released into our world when people stop having to lie?" David Landis Morse

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A folder full of videos sent to us by you, our audience. What could go wrong? This episode will be best consumed by being watched if possible.

Aaron Kelly and Ben Nicholson press play on the Reels, TikTok's & Shorts you sent in. It starts with our studio warm-up ritual, and a sermon that says to marinate in his majesty. It's a childhood encounter with a truly terrifying picture of Jesus, a theory about Judas wearing a bold lip, and a confession about a sermon illustration that involved breaking a man's nose. Along the way, it turns into something else: a reminder that church trauma brings a lot of us together, and that laughing about it can be part of getting better.

Aaron is an ex-pastor and Ben is an ex-church leader, both out and proud in Melbourne. This one is just the two of them, laughing and crying in equal measure.

"Love is the medicine, but laughter is great, too."

Heads up: this episode includes sexual humour and a few clips touching on hell and religious homophobia.

Instagram: @queerfully.made · TikTok: @queerfully.made · YouTube: youtube.com/queerfullymade

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Most conversion therapy doesn't look like therapy. Professor Tim Jones spent ten years proving it.

Tim worked out he was gay in a university library, went looking for help, and spent a couple of years trying to be straight. Then he spent a decade researching what had happened to him and to thousands of other LGBTQIA+ Australians. His team's work found that the ordinary, everyday practices, the prayer meeting and the pastoral care chat and the pressure to marry someone of the opposite sex, did more damage than the extreme cases everyone pictures. All three of us at the table had been through a version of it. None of us had a name for it at the time.

Professor Timothy Jones is a historian at La Trobe University and President of the Australian Queer Archives. He led the research behind Improving Spiritual Health Care for LGBTQA+ Australians: Beyond Conversion Practices.

"You'll know a good church by its queer fruity people."

Heads up: this episode talks about conversion practices, religious trauma and suicidality. Look after yourself.

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Aaron studied this man's textbook at Bible college. Twenty years later, Rev Dr David P. Gushee is on the podcast telling us about the dinner that changed everything.

A man he had never met took him out, quoted Gushee's own book back at him, and told him he was being a bystander when it came to LGBTQ people. Gushee did not argue. He said the man was right. What came next was Changing Our Mind, the book that cost one of America's most widely read evangelical ethicists his place in the evangelical world.

We talk about the harm he watched up close, why sexuality became the hill the church chose to die on, and where he is actually seeing things change. It ends with three answers we did not expect: what he would say to a young queer person sitting scared in an evangelical church, what he would say to that church's pastor, and what he would say to the pastor who already agrees but is too frightened to say so.

"You don't have to do anything to be a bystander. You just keep standing by."

Rev Dr David P. Gushee is Distinguished University Professor of Christian Ethics at Mercer University. His new book, Job in Exile: A Guide for Spiritual Refugees, is out this week with Orbis. Find him at davidpgushee.com.

Content warning: this episode discusses suicide and religious trauma.

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He got death threats for a joke. He left the synagogue two days after his bar mitzvah. And he might be the warmest person to ever tell you religion is a control system.

Aaron and Ben sit down with Reuben Kaye, cabaret superstar, comedian and drag artist, for the most provocation-forward conversation of the season. Reuben is unapologetically anti-institution, but underneath the edge is something that sounds a lot like this show: systems, not people. The ones caught inside are victims too.

We get into the joke that broke the internet, the night he talked a man out of setting him on fire, and the difference between personal faith and the institutions built on top of it.

As Reuben puts it: "be a good human. everything else is dressing on the salad."

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