The messy middle doesn't always announce itself. Sometimes it arrives at 40 years old with three kids, a career you left behind, and a life you have to rebuild from the ground up — while you're still in the wreckage of the one you lost.

Donna Jean Kendrick was 40 when her husband Greg died by suicide. What followed wasn't a clean grief arc. It was the duality of relief and devastation existing at the same time. It was quiet minivans and shower tears. It was oodles and noodles budgets and concussions at baseball games and a zero book of business and a mission she didn't know she was building toward yet.

In this episode, Donna and I talk about the anxiety and major life changes that come with losing a spouse suddenly — and what it actually looks like to survive, then slowly, imperfectly start to thrive. We talk about the complicated grief of suicide loss, the identity shift from wife to widow to single mother, the emotional complexity of finding love again and blending a family of six kids, and what it means when the beautiful life you build after only exists because of the one you lost.

We also talk about the moment her stepchildren's mother passed in 2024 — and how her own kids, who had been there before, knew exactly what to do.

This is a conversation about grief and relief. About the gap between surviving and living. About transition anxiety, identity shift, and holding the love of two people at the same time without looking away from any of it.

If this episode brings up anything difficult, please know you can reach the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline anytime by calling or texting 988. You are not alone.

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The messy middle doesn't always look like one hard thing. Sometimes it looks like being biracial, bisexual, a therapist, a storyteller, a single dad, and a first-time memoirist — all at the same time, all in the same body, all navigating the anxiety of major life changes while asking the same question: who am I when I can't fit into one box?

Johnzelle Anderson has been living in the duality his entire life. Growing up mixed race in Southwest Virginia in the 90s, raised in whiteness while being told he looked like a man he was never allowed to know, navigating a marriage, a separation, a bisexual identity shift, and a trip to Sierra Leone with his six-year-old daughter — all while starting over and helping other people heal from the exact kinds of wounds he was still uncovering in himself.

In this episode, Johnzelle and I talk about what it feels like to grow up being asked "what are you?" — and what it takes to finally answer that question for yourself. We talk about the transition anxiety that comes with losing who you were before you know who you're becoming. We talk about writing a memoir structured not in chapters but in tracks, because that's how memory actually moves. We talk about holding mixed emotions — grief and gratitude, identity and belonging, connection and isolation — all at the same time. And we talk about what it means to be worthy of connection — not entitled to it, worthy of it — and the difference between the two.

This is a conversation about identity, emotional complexity, and the messy middle of becoming more fully yourself. For anyone who has ever felt like too many things at once and wondered if that meant something was wrong with them — it doesn't. That's just what it feels like to be human.

Get Connected & Support the Show:

- Grab your free resource, What If You're Not Doing Anything Wrong — It's Just Hard Right Now, and give yourself permission to just be where you are.

- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions

- Order Johnzelle's book HERE

- Follow Johnzelle on Instagram or visit his website

- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts

The messy middle isn't always about a crisis you can name. Sometimes it's the slow realization that the timeline you had in your head — married by 30, partnered by 35 — just isn't happening. And instead of asking what's wrong with you, what if you asked something different?

Shani Silver has been single for over 13 years. She's 43, she deleted her dating apps in 2019, and she wrote the book — literally — on reframing singlehood. Her newest book, What If We Never Get Married? A Happily Ever Answer, sits with the question most of us are too scared to ask — and finds out the answer is so much better than what we've been taught to fear.

In this episode, Shani and I talk about the anxiety and life transitions that come with aging into singlehood, the grief of a timeline that didn't happen, and what it actually looks like to be happy while single — without swearing off love or pretending you don't still want it. We talk about how the dating industry destroyed dating culture for profit, why light bulb moments are for movies and not real human lives, and what partnered people don't realize they're doing to their single friends.

This is a conversation about permanence, grief, desire, and radical permission. You can want love and be happy alone. You can be in the messy middle of a life that doesn't look like what you planned — and still be living a full one.

For anyone navigating major life changes in how they see themselves, their relationships, or their future — this one is for you.

Get Connected & Support the Show:

- Listen to the companion podcast: It's Both- Guided Meditations for Anxiety, Emotional Regulation, & Real Life Transitions

- Order Shani's book HERE

- Follow Shani on Instagram, on TikTok, or visit her website

- Subscribe, rate, & review It's Both on Apple Podcasts