Why does everything have to be about picking a side?This week, Debra and Peter start with the long-awaited arrival of a new minister for civil society and ask what the appointment says about the government's relationship with the charity sector. From previous ministers who genuinely engaged with charities to the Civil Society Covenant, procurement and public service contracts, they explore what meaningful partnership between government and civil society should actually look like.The conversation then turns to something much darker: the intimidation and threats facing charity staff and volunteers. Prompted by the treatment of RNLI volunteers, Debra and Peter discuss the pressures facing organisations working with refugees and asylum seekers, the difference between legitimate protest and intimidation, and what happens when people simply trying to help others become targets themselves.That leads into a wider conversation about asylum, communities and our increasingly polarised public debate. Can we acknowledge people's fears while still treating those seeking refuge with humanity? Why does recognising complexity so often get interpreted as choosing a side? And have we lost the ability to accept that two things can be true at the same time?And then there's the question of men. From mob mentality and violence to football, cricket and the need to belong, Debra and Peter begin unpacking a much bigger question about masculinity, identity and where men find their sense of community. It's a subject they promise to return to, because 30 minutes was definitely not going to be enough.Plus: Peter attempts to relive his student days in Leeds, only to be informed by Wanless Junior that he's embarrassing himself, Somerset continue to put him through emotional turmoil, and he's off to Switzerland with plans for a spot of Alpine yodelling.And finally, this episode lands on the eve of Debra and Peter's birthday. Happy birthday for tomorrow to the podcast Twinnies! 🎂🎂Send your questions to jblazquez@dsc.org.uk or comment below for the next episode!YouTube Subscribe: YouTube.com/@DSCOnlineMore Debra Allcock TylerLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debra-allcock-tyler-8013214/More Peter WanlessLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sir-peter-wanless-b43aa372/Produced by: Directory of Social Change https://www.dsc.org.ukPodcast Producer: José Blazquez