In this final (for now) episode of Unboxing Social and Emotional Learning, we look back on the podcast project as a whole—sharing favorite moments, discussing recurrent themes, and imagining what may come next for the pod and for SEL. Listeners who have been with us since Season 1, Episode 1 may recall some of the quotes and moments we return to, and those listening for the first time may wish to go back and start from the beginning! As we explain with the episode title, the end to one thing is often the beginning to another. “SEL,” as we have expressed time and time again across our conversations, should not be seen as the be-all-end-all for learning to be social and emotional in a complicated world.

Participants:
Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York University
Jinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State University
Adishi Gupta, MA, Independent Scholar
Emma McMain, PhD, University of Arkansas
Tonje Molyneux, PhD, University of British Columbia
Editor: Adam Engelbrecht

References and Resources:

• McMain, E. M., Chan, M. C.-H., Edwards-Schuth, B., Molyneux, T., El Sabbagh, J., Gupta, A., & Engelbrecht, A. (Online First). Podcasting as a critical methodology: Reflections from a social and emotional learning podcast project. Cultural Studies ←→ Critical Methodologies. https://doi.org/10.1177/15327086251395813
• Montagne, A., Rousseau, C., & Gómez-Carrillo, A. (2026). The fine line between the cure and the illness: the risks of prescriptive emotionality and sociality for youth mental health. The Lancet Regional Health–Americas, 53. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-193X(25)00321-7/fulltext
• Clark, C. T., Chrisman, A., & Lewis, S. G. (2021). Using picturebooks to teach with and against social and emotional learning. Language Arts, 98(5), 246-259. https://doi.org/10.58680/la202131212
• The Master’s Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master’s House (Audre Lorde): https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/308596/the-masters-tools-will-never-dismantle-the-masters-house-by-lorde-audre/9780241339725
• Safir, S., Bagsik, M., Jaber, S., & Watson, C. M. (2026). Pedagogies of voice: Street data and the path to student agency. Corwin. https://pedagogiesofvoice.com/

In this conversation with Sharmila Miller, we learn about her experience as a drama teacher and anti-racism facilitator within education and performing arts. Sharmila shares how the process of teaching drama inherently involves engaging students with empathy, perspective taking, conflict resolution and problem solving skills. She also explains how she uses performing arts techniques for anti-racist education and facilitation. Through this fun and engaging dialogue, we are challenged to rethink formalized SEL education and reflect on the myriad ways sociality and emotionality are already embedded in the learning process.

Participants:
Adishi Gupta, MA, Independent Scholar
Emma McMain, PhD, University of Arkansas
Sharmila Miller, Drama & English Teacher, Maple Ridge, British Columbia (SD 42)
Facilitator: Adishi Gupta
Editor: Adam Engelbrecht

References and Resources:

• Interdisciplinary Arts Academy at School District 42, British Columbia: https://www.sd42.ca/academy/interdisciplinary-arts/
• Dr. Sarah Fine, “Lessons in Powerful Learning from the Fringes”: https://www.humanrestorationproject.org/podcasts/lessons-in-powerful-learning-from-the-fringes-w-dr-sarah-fine
• Augusto Boal and Theatre of the Oppressed: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Augusto-Boal
• Different levels of racism framework: https://www.raceforward.org/what-racial-equity-0

In this episode of Unboxing SEL, Dr. Shannon Wanless and Dr. Renee Owen share insights from their article Evolving Transformative SEL with an Ecological Perspective. They trace their unique paths into SEL and explain why moving beyond individualistic approaches is essential for tackling inequity and climate injustice. Emphasizing interconnectedness, collective action, and care for the natural world, they highlight ways educators can weave this perspective into everyday practice without adding to their workload. It’s a warm, thought-provoking conversation that invites listeners to reimagine SEL as a shared journey toward personal, community, and environmental well-being.

Participants:

Jinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State University

Emma McMain, PhD, University of Arkansas

Tonje Molyneux, PhD, University of British Columbia

Renee Owen, EdD, Southern Oregon University

Shannon Wanless, PhD, University of PIttsburgh

Facilitator: Tonje Molyneux

Editor: Adam Engelbrecht

References and Resources:

• “Evolving Transformative Social and Emotional Learning with an Ecological Perspective” (Renee Owen, Meena Srinivasan, and Shannon Wanless): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2773233925000506
• Oregon Department of Education SEL site (dispositions): https://www.oregon.gov/ode/educator-resources/standards/sel/pages/default.aspx
• Transformative Educational Leadership: https://www.teleadership.org/
• Lisa Miller and The Spiritual Child: https://www.lisamillerphd.com/
• Rainbow Community School: https://rainbowcommunityschool.org/?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21848063262&gbraid=0AAAAADRjSUXbLK8qKqepoA3EwtRXtbaTO&gclid=Cj0KCQjwndHEBhDVARIsAGh0g3Aa6JtWceMlTCe0UYSR0NPooEmXoLcgLziV_QnBScv9WxyyCe1DKIEaAjMfEALw_wcB
• SEE curriculum: https://seelearning.emory.edu/
• Sherri Mitchell and Sacred Instructions: https://www.sacredinstructions.life/
• Robin Wall Kimmerer and Indigenous Wisdom: https://www.robinwallkimmerer.com/
• David Sobel and The Holistic Educational Review: https://www.antioch.edu/faculty/david-sobel/
• Teach for Climate Justice: A Vision for Transforming Education (Tom Roderick): https://hep.gse.harvard.edu/9781682538074/teach-for-climate-justice/
• Restoring the Kinship Worldview (Wahinkpe Topa/Four Arrows and Darcia Narvaez): https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/690771/restoring-the-kinship-worldview-by-wahinkpe-topa-four-arrows/
• Richie Davidson and the Upaya Zen Center: https://www.upaya.org/about/
• The Center for Holistic Education: https://centerforholisticeducation.org/

Unboxing SEL dives into conversation with Traci Gardner and Xavier Graves from the Restorative Justice Institute of Oklahoma (RJIOK) to learn about their work and vision toward promoting more just and equitable futures. Restorative justice, says Xavier, “is not the what, it’s the how we get there.” We discuss the overlaps between SEL and restorative justice, ending with the bittersweet hope that change can come if we are willing to reenvision our systems. From Traci: “I do believe human relationships can be healed and restored, given enough time and space. And I also believe we live in a society that does not make that time or space available to us. So just living in the both/and of that.”

Participants:

Traci Gardner, Nurturer of Restorative Futures, RJIOK

Xavier Graves, E.D., RJIOK

Jinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State University

Emma McMain, PhD, University of Arkansas

Facilitator: Jinan El Sabbagh

Editor: Adam Engelbrecht

References and Resources:

• Internal Family Systems: https://ifs-institute.com/
• Cheryl Step, Creating Resilience: https://creatingresilience.org/index.html
• Bettina Love, Punished for Dreaming: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250280381/punishedfordreaming/
• The Social Relational Window: https://restorativeteachingtools.com/understanding-the-social-relational-window/
• CAR Model (Cue-Action-Response): https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/psychology/car-model
• Ubuntu: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1HQKko_qRr4
• adrienne maree brown and Autumn Brown, “How to Survive the End of the World”: https://adriennemareebrown.net/podcast/how-to-survive-the-end-of-the-world/
• Dr. Sunita Sah: https://www.sunitasah.com/

In this lively episode, Michaela Brain joins us to talk about her work as an educational assistant and support worker in British Columbia, Canada. Michaela shares her experiences with SEL instruction across a variety of educational settings including group homes, early childhood centres, learning centres, and elementary schools. We also discuss how SEL programming can be adapted for students with disabilities and what other supports these students (and their support staff) may need to thrive.

Participants:

Michaela Brain, BA, Child and Youth Development Worker

Melvin Chan, MA, York University

Jinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State University

Adishi Gupta, MA, Independent Scholar

Emma McMain, PhD, University of Arkansas

Tonje Molyneux, PhD, University of British Columbia

Facilitator: Melvin Chan

Editor: Adam Engelbrecht

References and Resources:

• Everyday Speech: https://everydayspeech.com/
• Second Step SEL Program: https://www.secondstep.org/

Chris McNutt joins us for a transformative conversation about his work as the co-founder and executive director of Human Restoration Project, a nonprofit organization focused on truly listening to youth and reimagining school at a systems level. Chris shares what he has learned about SEL through ‘empathetic interviews’ with young people, and how schools might meaningfully engage with students’ wisdom rather than undermine it. “It’s simple,” he says, “but not easy.” Tune in for the full discussion!

Participants:

Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York University

Jinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State University

Emma McMain, PhD, University of Arkansas

Chris McNutt, Human Restoration Project

Facilitator: Emma McMain

Editor: Adam Engelbrecht

References and Resources:

• About Human Restoration Project: https://www.humanrestorationproject.org/about
• Empathy Interview Protocols: https://www.humanrestorationproject.org/resources/empathy-interview-protocols
• Street Data: A Next-Generation Model of Equity, Pedagogy, and School Transformation (Shane Safir and Jamila Dugan): https://www.corwin.com/books/street-data-271852?srsltid=AfmBOoqgo33XnGfKekuqfIaPEDFbbBUxs0KI9KLWRXT5MiDvHIwcp9A-#main-content
• Equity-Centered Trauma-Informed Education (Alex Shevrin Venet): https://www.phoenixbooks.biz/book/9780393714739
• Deborah Meier and the Small Schools Movement: https://naeducation.org/member/deborah-meier/
• Zoe Weil and the Institute for Humane Education: https://humaneeducation.org/about-ihe/meet-zoe-weil/
• The Labor of Lunch (Jennifer Gaddis): https://www.ucpress.edu/books/the-labor-of-lunch/paper
• Transforming School Food Politics Around the World (Jennifer Gaddis): https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262548113/transforming-school-food-politics-around-the-world/

After a hiatus following Season 1, we are back and more excited than ever to dive into the unboxing of social and emotional learning! We find ourselves in a social scene that is both new and not-new, when we consider the political tensions SEL is up against and our ongoing concerns about its ability to dismantle systems of oppression in locally situated ways. Join us on a trip down memory lane as we reflect on how this podcast first got started, who we were then, who we are now, and where we are going.

Participants:

Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York University

Jinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State University

Adishi Gupta, MA, Independent Scholar

Emma McMain, PhD, University of Arkansas

Tonje Molyneux, PhD, University of British Columbia

Facilitator: Emma McMain

Editor: Adam Engelbrecht

References and Resources:

• El Sabbagh, J. (2021). “Move, play, regulate”: A critical ethnography of a community-based SEL curriculum’s transformative implications at a low-income public elementary school (Publication No. 10302) [Doctoral dissertation, Oklahoma State University]. ProQuest. https://www.proquest.com/docview/2663529983?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true&sourcetype=Dissertations%20&%20Theses
• Health Promoting Schools (World Health Organization): https://www.who.int/health-topics/health-promoting-schools#tab=tab_1
• Hoffman, D. M. (2009). Reflecting on social emotional learning: A critical perspective on trends in the United States. Review of Educational Research, 79(2), 533-556. https://doi.org/10.3102/0034654308325184
• McMain, E. M., & Higheagle Strong, Z. (2020). Social emotional learning for social emotional justice: A conceptual framework for education in the midst of pandemics. Northwest Journal of Teacher Education, 15(2), 1-11. https://doi.org/10.15760/nwjte.2020.15.2.6
• Wellstream—The Canadian Centre for Innovation in Child & Youth Mental Health & Substance Use: https://wellstream.ca/

Let’s talk politics! As SEL becomes increasingly situated in the midst of educational “culture wars” between the political left and right, we decided to devote an entire episode to discussing how this polarization has happened and what it means. Is SEL a “Trojan Horse for Critical Race Theory,” as some conservative groups argue? Is it an innocently “apolitical” phenomenon supported by an entirely objective research base? Tune in to follow our discussion about political non-negotiables, open-mindedness, and the tricky balance of making room for both.

Participants:

Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York University

Jinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State University

Adishi Gupta, MA, University of British Columbia

Emma McMain, PhD, Washington State University

Tonje Molyneux, MEd, MA, University of British Columbia

Facilitators: Tonje Molyneux and Emma McMain

Editor: Adam Engelbrecht

References:

Buck, D. (2022, August 13). Conservatives are right to be skeptical of SEL. National Review. Retrieved from https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/08/conservatives-are-right-to-be-skeptical-of-sel/

Strambler, M. (2023, May 12). Open inquiry initiative: The intellectually honest case for social and emotional learning. Discourse Magazine. Retrieved from https://www.discoursemagazine.com/p/open-inquiry-initiative-the-intellectually-honest-case-for-social-and-emotional-learning