Trust is often talked about as if it were bad weather, something that just happens to us, beyond anyone’s control. But what if trust doesn’t disappear by accident, and what if its erosion has very concrete causes?

In this episode, Ruben Beijl, co-author of Time for Trust (Tijd voor Vertrouwen), discusses how trust is built through participation and erodes when participation is only symbolic. Drawing on his work with citizens’ assemblies, Ruben explains why people do not lose trust because they disagree with outcomes, but because their voices ultimately do not matter. He shows why disagreement can coexist with trust, while being ignored cannot, and why psychological safety is essential if people are expected to speak openly and honestly.

The conversation also explores why timing is crucial, why informing citizens is not the same as involving them, and why handing over real responsibility is often the hardest step for institutions. Ruben argues that trust grows when governments are willing to create genuine space for influence, even when that means giving up control and accepting uncertainty.

This episode offers a clear, practice-based look at trust as something shaped by everyday choices and institutional behavior, rather than by intentions alone.

My guest today, Gert Tinggaard Svendsen challenges one of the most common myths about high-trust societies: that trust is cultural or “in the DNA.” In Denmark, he argues, trust is built, not inherited. It grows from institutions, incentives, and everyday experiences of fairness.

He defines trust in practical terms: the likelihood of being cheated. When corruption is low and the rule of law applies equally, people learn that cooperation usually pays. That is why corruption is so destructive, it signals that some people are above the rules, and once that belief takes hold, trust quickly erodes.

Much of Denmark’s resilience, Gert explains, comes from long traditions of face-to-face trade and strong social norms. People learned that cheating carried social costs. That still matters today. Most people are what he calls “hard riders”: willing to cooperate and contribute. Trust survives because “tough riders” step in when someone breaks the rules, correcting behavior before it spreads.

The same logic applies to politics. High trust makes consensus possible. Citizens carry a lifetime record of successful cooperation — a “trust rucksack” — which makes compromise feel safe. Compared with the Netherlands, Gert sees Denmark as less polarized, partly because political dialogue remains strong even with extreme parties.

Strong institutions are just as important. Low corruption and real meritocracy allow people to believe the system is fair. In welfare states, this is crucial: citizens must trust that taxes are used well and that everyone who can contribute does so. When that balance holds, welfare becomes a form of collective insurance rather than a source of resentment.

Gert warns against over-control. Treating everyone as a potential cheat undermines trust and raises costs. As he puts it: 100 percent control equals zero trust. The biggest long-term risks for Denmark are creeping bureaucracy, centralization of power, and declining face-to-face interaction. Trust, he says, is like a winning sports team — it only lasts if you keep training. Once taken for granted, it can disappear faster than anyone expects.

On Christmas Eve, Santa Claus joins TrustTalk to discuss trust, doubt, and why listening to ourselves and to others matters as we look ahead to a new year, referring to Rudyard Kipling’s poem "If" on how to be confident without ignoring the doubts of others.