In this episode, we take up one of the most puzzling and fascinating passages in the Zhuangzi: the “Happy Fish” debate between Zhuangzi and Huizi. Can Zhuangzi really know that the fish are happy if he is not a fish? Along the way, we explore skepticism, language, animal minds, and the ordinary but surprisingly sophisticated ways we recognize joy in other living things.

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• 12:22 Preface to today's topic
• 13:57 The Zhuangzi's happy fish debate

Many thanks to The Hong Kong Ethics Lab for sponsoring this podcast series.

Want to continue the discussion? Need links to some of the sources mentioned? Go to the support page for this episode on Warp, Weft, and Way.

We thank Lena Li (LI La 李拉) for her expert editing and sound engineering.

Co-hosts:
Richard Kim's website
Justin Tiwald's website

Confucian philosophers often suggest that having good and bad examples plays a critical role in moral education and motivation. How do good examples figure into our ethical education, and how do bad examples help us discover vices or shortcomings in our selves? In this episode, we discuss this wide-ranging issue in connection with the Analects of Confucius, beginning with Confucius's famous remark that he can find a teacher in just about any social setting (even when out walking with at least two other people chosen at random).

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• 13:45 Preface to today's topic
• 14:25 Moral examples in the Analects

Many thanks to The Hong Kong Ethics Lab for sponsoring this podcast series.

Want to continue the discussion? Need links to some of the sources mentioned? Go to the support page for this episode on Warp, Weft, and Way.

We thank Lena Li (LI La 李拉) for her expert editing and sound engineering.

Co-hosts:
Richard Kim's website
Justin Tiwald's website

Many of us value autonomy in decision-making: we want to make our own choices and think for ourselves. But we also know that in many areas of life, it is well advised to have greater faith in people who know more than we do, in experts such as doctors, scientists, plumbers, chess coaches, teachers, and maybe even philosophers.

In this episode of This Is the Way, we explore moral autonomy and moral deference in Confucian philosophy, focusing on Xunzi’s powerful defense of trusting tradition, ritual, and moral experts. We also explore some powerful objections to Xunzi by later Confucians who worried that too much deference to external sources might make real moral understanding -- and thus real moral virtue -- impossible

Justin's short piece on moral deference and "getting it oneself" in Confucian philosophy

Want to skip to the episode's primary philosophical issue? Go to

• 3:55 Preface to today's topic
• 9:15 Deference and autonomy in Confucianism

Many thanks to The Hong Kong Ethics Lab for sponsoring this podcast series.

Want to continue the discussion? Need links to some of the sources mentioned? Go to the support page for this episode on Warp, Weft, and Way.

We thank Lena Li (LI La 李拉) for her expert editing and sound engineering.

Co-hosts:
Richard Kim's website
Justin Tiwald's website