The great Brenda Romero is our guest. CEO and co-founder Romero Games, she’s made both commercial hits like Jagged Alliance, and true art games like Train. BAFTA winner and author of Sex in Video Games, she still has time to 100% Balatro. We talk monster spreadsheets and free play – this week!

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Founder and CEO of Young Horses Phil Tibitoski joined us to explain how you can succeed without greenlights! Their student project Octodad went on to IGF fame and solid sales, followed by the charming Bug Snax. We talk knowing when to ship and the art of fumblecore - this week!

TIMESTAMPS

[0:08:27] Intro: Phillip Tibitoski / Phil Tibbs

[0:10:29] The Secret to 15 Years: Self-Publishing, Weird Ideas & Happy Teams
Alex asks Phil the core question: how do you sustain an indie studio for 15 years? Phil credits avoiding traditional publishers, staying creatively strange, and actively asking each team member what skill they want to grow with every new project.

[0:22:28] The Glorious Nine: Forming the Studio and Betting on Yourselves
Phil recounts the basement-of-a-hostel meeting at GDC 2011 where the original 18-person student team voted on who would go all-in on making Young Horses a real company.

[0:24:19] How Phil Became CEO (And Why He Keeps Getting Re-Elected)
Alex asks how Phil ended up running the studio. Phil reveals that Young Horses votes on officers at an annual meeting, that he landed in the role partly because no one else wanted it, then discovered a genuine love for the business and marketing side.

[0:25:59] Learning to Run a Studio: The Kindness of Other Developers
Phil describes how he learned everything — profit sharing, platform deals, dev kits, legal structures — by relentlessly asking other indie developers who had done it before, including the team at Gaijin Games (now Choice Provisions), who invited them to a studio party and shared their war stories.

[0:39:24] Octodad to Bugsnax: Six Years, a PS5 Launch, and the Sophomore Slump
Phil unpacks the six-year journey from Octodad: Dadliest Catch to Bugsnax — including the fear of the sophomore slump, spending 3 years figuring out how the game actually played, and the strategic decision to align launch with the Playstation 5 release.

[0:59:43] Advice for the Next Generation: Context Is Everything, Luck Finds the Prepared
Alex asks how Phil would think about starting a studio in today's landscape. Phil cautions students not to copy Young Horses' exact playbook (it wouldn't work now) and instead advocates for reading your unique context, diversifying interests beyond games, and positioning yourself so that luck can find you.

[0:09:08] Outro: Wrapping Up

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest was chief creative officer at Blizzard and helped drive some of the biggest videogames ever, like StarCraft and World of Warcraft. Now CEO of Bonfire Studios, he's making a new title, Arkheron. We discuss smurfing, game seeds and cracking the art style - this week!

TIMESTAMPS:

[0:04:58] Intro: Rob Pardo

[0:09:07] From Retail to Roller Hockey: How Rob Got Into Blizzard
Rob traces his path from managing a Software Etc. store and game testing at Interplay to first meeting the Blizzard team playing roller hockey; talking about what skills put him on Blizzard's radar.

[0:13:14] First Job at Interplay: Starting as a Game Tester
Rob explains how what got him into Interplay's QA department, how he quickly rose to assistant line producer, and how his early love of arcades, D&D, and computer games made him pursue jobs where he actually wanted to be.

[0:26:28] The Warcraft II Bet That Got Rob Noticed
CEO Brian Fargo bet on Rob in a best-of-three Warcraft II match against Interplay's best player. Rob breaks down his strategic thinking round by round — grunt rush, map selection, navy maps — and how winning that match, plus his other experience, built his early reputation at Blizzard.

[0:31:29] Finding His Footing: Designing StarCraft From QA
Rob describes how he slowly built credibility through sharp balance feedback, writing the first build orders that were turned directly into scripts, and designing multiplayer maps like Lost Temple — all before the design role even officially existed.

[0:58:35] Building World of Warcraft: The Early Vision and Art Style Breakthrough
The hosts ask how WoW got started and Rob explains the team restructuring after Warcraft III, the vision for a seamless open world, worldbuilding on a whiteboard, and the accidental art style breakthrough that made everything click.

[1:11:52] The Blizzard Design Values: Easy to Learn, Impossible to Master
Alex asks Rob to share the top Blizzard design rules he developed and codified. Rob walks through several, including the story behind the WoW rest system, which he reframed after feedback from the community.

[1:17:08] Starting Over: What It's Like to Build Bonfire Studios from Scratch
Alex asks what it felt like to leave the top of the industry and start fresh. Rob reflects on watching Blizzard's teams slow down as they grew, why smaller focused teams produce better work, and his conviction that putting the team first is the only sustainable path to great games.

[1:29:31] How Bonfire Chose Its Game: The Game Seed Process
Rob details the structured creative process Bonfire used to select their game: “game seed” pitches, Post-it Note voting, 2-3 week concept sprints, and 1 question that produced a near-unanimous answer and became Archon.

[1:42:12] Outro: Wrapping Up

Support the show

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505