What happens when we stop looking at human systems as separate from the natural world?

In this conversation, I talk with Clinton Alden, a researcher and systems thinker I met through Substack. Clinton has developed what he calls the Cosmos Framework and the 7ES framework, which he uses to examine systems, feedback, adaptation, and the conditions that allow systems to remain healthy.

We start with Clinton's childhood curiosity and the unusual path that eventually led him to these questions. From there, we get into binary versus contextual thinking, feedback, cooperation, competition, and his idea that the universe can be understood as a computational system.

We also talk about one of the questions at the heart of The 10,000 Year Problem: if humans have successfully lived in much larger groups than our ancestral communities, is "there are just too many people" really an adequate explanation for what went wrong?

Clinton describes his framework as a diagnostic and auditing tool—something that might help identify where systems have stopped responding to feedback and how they might be repaired.

We also get into a question I keep coming back to: How do we change systems that seem designed to resist change?

One of my favorite moments comes when Clinton talks about being willing to discover that he's wrong:

And later:

We end with beavers, ecology, and a surprisingly simple prescription for living together:

Don't be a dick.

In this episode

• How childhood curiosity shaped Clinton's approach to learning
• Moving beyond binary thinking toward context and gradients
• The universe as a computational system
• The 7ES framework and passive feedback
• Why systems need feedback to remain healthy
• Cooperation, competition, and symbiotic relationships
• Whether population size really explains the emergence of hierarchy
• Cognitive rewilding and reconnecting with ecological reality
• Using systems thinking to diagnose institutional problems
• Testing and validating a new framework
• Why being wrong can be useful
• The relationship between biological and symbolic systems
• What beavers can teach us about living within an ecosystem

About Clinton Alden

Clinton Alden is a researcher and systems thinker developing the Cosmos Framework and 7ES framework for understanding complex systems, feedback, adaptation, and human institutions.

More from Clinton

Clinton's research, writing, and framework are available through his Substack https://substack.com/@clintonalden.

The Kosmos Framework: https://www.youtube.com/@thekosmosframework

KIST Academy: https://github.com/KosmosFramework/learning_center

About The 10,000 Year Problem

The 10,000 Year Problem asks who we were before cities, kings, borders, and ownership—and what happened between then and now.

This isn't about romanticizing the past. It's about understanding who we were, who we are, and who we might become.

10,000 years brought us here. The next chapter is ours to write.

How Did the Idiots Get the Power?

Why do so many societies elevate self-interested, grandiose, or even psychopathic leaders? In this episode of I’m Just Sayin’, we explore how human communities may have shifted from small-scale, cooperative societies to complex civilizations dominated by concentrated power.

The episode begins with a working definition of psychopathy and considers what may have happened as humans moved from prehistory into modernity. Rather than assuming that our ancestors lived in a perfect or utopian world, we examine how changes in population size, social organization, and leadership may have created conditions that reward aggressive, self-serving behavior.

A central question runs throughout the discussion: Do our systems select for leaders who are poorly suited to the responsibilities of power?

The conversation also explores how ordinary people become enablers of harmful systems, why responsibility cannot be assigned only to those at the top, and why meaningful change may require healing ourselves before attempting to change the world. Ultimately, this episode is an invitation to revisit fundamental questions about who we are, how we got here, what may have been lost, and whether we can reduce the suffering caused by destructive leadership.

In this episode

• A working definition of psychopathy
• What happened as humans moved from prehistory to modernity
• Why societies may repeatedly select self-interested leaders
• How the values built into social systems influence leadership
• The idea behind a book about “assholes” causing our problems
• Changes in human population ecology and social scale
• The purpose of this broader body of work
• Taking power back from destructive or psychopathic leadership
• The relationship between leadership, human problems, and suffering
• Why our ancestors’ societies were not necessarily utopian
• Why people may still suffer far more than necessary today
• How ordinary people become enablers of harmful systems
• The tension between being trapped by a system and remaining responsible for it
• Why healing ourselves may need to come first
• The grandiosity of civilizations and their leaders
• How leadership may have shifted from tribal consultation to self-interest
• Why extinction creates an urgent reason to understand these patterns
• Alternative views that treat self-interested leadership as inevitable or beneficial
• What may have been lost in the transition to modernity
• Returning to the original questions: Who are we, and why are we here?
• An invitation to sit with the information and draw personal conclusions

Key takeaway

Our political and social problems may be connected to systems that reward the wrong traits in leaders. Understanding how power became concentrated—and how ordinary people participate in maintaining those systems—may be necessary if we want to reduce suffering and create a different future.

In this wide-ranging conversation, Jackrabbit explores his concept of the “Collapse Engine,” a term he uses to describe the metacrisis as a whole. At the center of his argument is a mismatch between the human brain we evolved with and the abstract, hyper-complex environments we have built.

Jackrabbit suggests that modern cultural and technological advances have disconnected us from the natural feedback loops that once helped regulate human behavior. Our older, visceral brain systems evolved in intimate, localized environments where causes and consequences were immediate and understandable. Today, those systems must operate within a globalized and highly abstract world—one shaped by climate change, extraction, bureaucracy, technology, and systems too complex for any individual to fully comprehend.

The conversation examines the relationship between the visceral core of the brain and the neocortex, the stories we tell ourselves about who we are, and the possibility that humans have become an invasive species within the larger systems that created us.

Jackrabbit also discusses climate change, human evolution, egalitarianism, religion, the myth of the “noble savage,” alternative value systems, and the challenge of facing the future without immediately trying to control or fix it. Rather than offering a simple solution, he argues for understanding the forces at work, sitting with reality, and learning to distinguish the narratives of the neocortex from the deeper motivations of the visceral brain.

In this episode

• Jackrabbit’s background and intellectual influences
• The Vital Question by Nick Lane
• The Secret of Our Success by Joseph Henrich
• The “Collapse Engine” and the broader metacrisis
• How modern environments conflict with the brains humans evolved with
• Why humans may behave like an invasive species
• The loss of natural feedback loops
• The relationship between the visceral brain and the neocortex
• Why humans live in an increasingly abstract world
• How modern complexity overwhelms older brain systems
• Climate change and the difficulty of responding to distant threats
• Why some extractive actors make destructive choices even when they understand the consequences
• Localization, attribution, and unavoidability in natural human environments
• The idea that humans are artifacts of larger systems rather than entirely self-created individuals
• Accretion and the evolutionary forces that shape us
• What life was like in small, intimate human communities
• Evolutionary theory and the persistence of ancient human traits
• Why egalitarianism may not be the central problem
• The mythologizing of the “noble savage”
• Whether the human–environment mismatch is actually unnatural
• The possibility that humans are naturally transforming—and damaging—the planet
• Why Jackrabbit does not offer simple solutions for the future
• Understanding and accepting the processes already unfolding
• Separating the neocortex’s narrative from the visceral cortex
• Alternative value systems
• Stewardship, nature, and Jackrabbit’s future work
• “Marie Curie is my housecat”

Books and resources mentioned

• The Vital Question — Nick Lane
• The Secret of Our Success — Joseph Henrich
• Jackrabbit’s essay, “Was Agent Smith Right?”
  https://substack.com/home/post/p-203992492
• Jackrabbit’s Substack
  https://substack.com/@jackrabbitrocks

Key takeaway

The problems facing modern civilization may not be caused only by bad individuals or flawed institutions. They may also emerge from a deeper mismatch between ancient human biology and the complex environments we have created. Understanding that mismatch—and the systems that produced it—may be the first step toward responding more honestly to the future.