What can the anatomy of modern birds tell us about dinosaurs? And why do so many artists, even professionals, get bird anatomy wrong?

In this episode of Terrible Lizards, Iszi Lawrence and Dr Dave Hone are joined by Katrina van Grouw, author, illustrator and avian biologist, to explore the connections between bird anatomy, dinosaur evolution and the mechanics of flight.

Katrina's new book, A New Unfeathered Bird, is an extensively expanded version of her acclaimed The Unfeathered Bird. It combines detailed anatomical illustrations with a deep dive into how birds are built, how they move and how they evolved. The book also reaches back into the dinosaur family tree, with illustrations of non-avian dinosaurs in action.

We talk about why artists often put a bird's knees in the wrong place, what skeletons reveal about how animals move, and how different birds have evolved different ways of flying. Katrina explains the difference between thermal soaring and dynamic soaring, why albatrosses have such distinctive wings, and how birds use their tails and individual feathers to manoeuvre in the air.

The conversation also explores how birds diversified after the extinction of the non-avian dinosaurs, what we can learn by comparing animals with similar adaptations, and why understanding anatomy means looking beyond appearances to consider how an animal actually works.

Katrina also tells us how A New Unfeathered Bird grew out of a project first conceived decades ago, why she wanted to revisit the science of bird evolution, and how the palaeontology community helped shape the new edition. It's a fascinating look at the meeting point between art and science, and at what careful observation can reveal about the animals around us.

A New Unfeathered Bird by Katrina van Grouw is available to pre-order ahead of publication on 12 January 2027.

Find the book at NHBS:
https://www.nhbs.com/a-new-unfeathered-bird-book

Follow Katrina on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/katrina_van_grouw/

Support Terrible Lizards and get access to bonus episodes and other extra content on Patreon:
https://patreon.com/terriblelizards

Terrible Lizards is a dinosaur podcast hosted by Iszi Lawrence and palaeontologist Dr Dave Hone.

Were pachycephalosaurs really headbutting each other? Could they have been covered in fuzzy filaments? And does the evidence for scaly skin mean that T. rex was definitely not feathered?

Youtube link: https://youtu.be/Km8CWetEnxI

In this Dinosaur Bite, Iszi Lawrence and Dr Dave Hone get into the details of dinosaur skin, from the healed injuries on thick-skulled pachycephalosaurs to the mysterious patterns preserved in tyrannosaur fossils. Dave explains why what looks like a scale is not necessarily a scale, and why we still have a lot to learn about the coverings of many dinosaurs.

We also hear about the challenges of preserving delicate fossil evidence. Sometimes palaeontologists have to make difficult decisions about what to save, and occasionally that means deliberately breaking bones to get a fossil out of the ground in one piece. It's a reminder that the fossil record is shaped not only by what nature preserves, but also by what researchers can recover.

Support Terrible Lizards and get access to bonus episodes and other extra content on Patreon:
https://patreon.com/terriblelizards

RAWR!

Was Torosaurus REALLY a Male Triceratops? | Dinosaur Bites

Terrible Lizards Dinosaur Bites – bite-sized extracts from old episodes and live streams to keep you going.

Was Torosaurus actually just a male Triceratops? Can we tell whether pterosaurs had emotions? And could the surprisingly dexterous feet of modern birds give us clues about dinosaur behaviour?

In this Dinosaur Bite, Iszi Lawrence and Dr Dave Hone tackle some wonderfully difficult questions about what we can and can't know about dinosaur behaviour and biology.

They discuss whether pterosaurs and dinosaurs had emotions. We can see emotional responses in living reptiles and birds, but how far can we push that comparison when the animals in question have been extinct for millions of years?

Is the long-running Triceratops vs Torosaurus debate. Could the two dinosaurs actually be different sexes of the same species? Dave explains why the idea is tempting, but why the fossil record makes him very sceptical — including the strange distribution of Triceratops and Torosaurus fossils and the mysterious specimen nicknamed "Tiny".

And finally, a question about foot dexterity in birds: some modern birds can use their feet almost like hands to pick up and manipulate food. Could that tell us anything about the motor skills of their dinosaur ancestors?

Plus: a five-year-old's interpretation of "Pterosaurs in Motion", some extremely determined pterosaur squawking, and Dave's hopes of one day writing a new book about pterosaurs.

Watch the video on YouTube:

Watch Terrible Lizards on YouTube https://youtu.be/2MTGkSdqSJw

Support Terrible Lizards and get bonus episodes and other extra content:

Patreon – Terrible Lizards https://patreon.com/terriblelizards

Terrible Lizards is a dinosaur podcast hosted by Iszi Lawrence and palaeontologist Dr Dave Hone.

RAWR!