What happens when men realize the promises of traditional masculinity—power, wealth, dominance—are either unattainable or ultimately unsatisfying? This groundbreaking conversation with sex educators Dr. Karen Rayne and Corbin Knight-Dixon reveals the hidden grief process many men experience when confronting these realities.

Twenty years into their work in sexuality education, our guests have witnessed seismic shifts in how masculinity functions in society. While much public discourse focuses on "toxic masculinity," they argue this framing misses something crucial: the profound grief and isolation many men feel when navigating their gender identity in today's world. This grief, often unacknowledged and unprocessed, drives many young men toward communities that offer simple answers and validation—from online forums to religious groups to political movements promising a return to traditional gender roles.

Dr. Rayne shares a fascinating story about working with middle school boys who had been disciplined for sexist behavior. When she asked them to draw what masculinity meant to them, one drew Donald Trump, explaining he represented power and wealth. When she gently unpacked Trump's problematic statements about women, the boy was genuinely shocked and immediately rejected that model. This illuminating moment shows how rarely adults engage young men in thoughtful conversations about gender.

Throughout our discussion, one theme emerges repeatedly: the desperate need for kindness in our approach to masculinity. "Finding the way to listen from the quiet parts of your own self to the quiet parts of someone else, that's what we really need more of," Dr. Rayne explains. Rather than shaming men or using language that alienates them, our guests advocate for creating spaces where vulnerability is welcomed and grief can be processed.

Despite the challenging political climate, both experts express optimism about the future of masculinity. They're seeing more young men show up in their classes, asking thoughtful questions and engaging in new ways. "We are seeing the future of masculinity now," Corbin notes. "It's not hypothetical, we're practicing it."

Want to learn more about creating healthier models of masculinity? Visit unhushed.org and corbinknightdixon.com to explore resources and educational materials.

More about our guests:

Dr. Karen Rayne has been working in education for the past two decades with an expertise in sexuality education across the lifespan. She is the cofounder of UN|HUSHED, where she writes and edits books and lifespan comprehensive sexuality curricula, trains sexuality educators, and builds collaborative coalitions. She is also an Assistant Professor of Instruction at The University of Texas. Karen has worked with local, national, and international organizations. Oh and she's written a lot of books..like a LOT - and they are amazing! I suggest searching on Bookshop.org to find her work.

Corbin Knight-Dixon (he/him), MS, is a facilitator and learning specialist focused on anti-violence, sexuality education, LGBTQ+ health, and anti-racist health equity. His work centers on reimagining masculinity, driving systems change, and building programs that strengthen community relationships and collective care.

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What if we reimagined our relationship with power? What if God wasn't an all-powerful ruler but instead a midwife, standing alongside us through life's messiest moments?

In this deeply moving conversation, returning guest Halley Kim introduces a revolutionary framework for understanding power dynamics in religion and politics. Drawing from her background in midwifery and her personal journey away from evangelical Christianity, Halley explores three distinct forms of power: power over, power together, and power within.

The dominant "power over" model is exemplified by dictators like Trump and the authoritarian God of many religious traditions – entities who control through force, manipulation, and fear. This framework sets people up for spiritual trauma when suffering inevitably occurs, leaving them wondering why an all-powerful God didn't save them from pain.

As an alternative, Halley presents the midwifery model as a profound metaphor for "power together." Midwives don't save women from the pain of childbirth; they bear witness, provide support, and accompany women through their journey. This solidarity creates space for individuals to access their own inner strength – their "power within."

The conversation takes an emotional turn when Hallie introduces her concept of "God as a midwife" – a divine presence that doesn't control everything but instead stands with us through life's challenges. This reimagining of spirituality offers healing possibilities for those with complicated relationships to religion and provides a framework for understanding community power in our current political landscape.

Whether you're wrestling with questions of faith, seeking to understand power dynamics in your own life, or simply looking for hope in challenging times, this conversation offers profound insights into how we might transform our relationship with power and with each other.

More about Halley:

Halley Kim is a writer and freelance editor in St. Louis, MO. Sheʼs also a former evangelical pastorʼs wife turned leftist heretic. In her nursing career she worked primarily with mothers and babies, also taking on the roles of doula, lactation consultant, midwifeʼs assistant, and educator. Halley spent a stint working in pastoral ministry herself within a progressive denomination (United Church of Christ). Halley is currently writing a book about power dynamics and Christianity, where she argues that a power-WITH God, such as a midwife, would have a dramatically more positive effect on society than the power-OVER God weʼve inherited. She and her husband Simon have three children, Gabriel, Phoebe, and Tabitha, and one fur-baby, Bruno. You can access her work on Instagram @maybe_gods_a_midwife or on Substack @halleywkim

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Deborah Burgess returns to discuss power dynamics, religion, and the politics of hate in these unprecedented times. We share insights on how hatred has been weaponized throughout history and is currently being employed in American politics to create division.

• Frederick Douglass's prescient 1865 warning about societal oppression and its consequences
• How late-stage capitalism fuels political division and prioritizes profit over people
• The concept of "otherism" and how it's used to create fear and consolidate power
• The concerning intersection of religious identity with nationalist politics
• Personal strategies for maintaining sanity and purpose in challenging times
• Finding radical joy as an act of resistance against the politics of hate
• The importance of critical thinking and creating salon-like spaces for genuine dialogue

Check out the show notes, accessibility transcript, and all guest links at shitwedonttalkaboutpodcast.com.

About Deborah Burgess:

Deborah has 21 years of university teaching experience including teaching in Beijing, China at the University of Colorado Denver's Global Campus for six years. This was a tremendous experience teaching students courses in Business and Professional Speaking, Public Speaking, and Essential Communication in a Global Society. Additionally Deborah has consulting/training experience working domestically for non-profits, federal, state and private industry in Diversity Equity and Inclusion, Gender and Communication and Appropriate Business Communication in Corporate Settings. Deborah conducted training classes at Beijing Foreign Studies University in China teaching mid-level executives of China Construction Bank and China Southern Airlines skills/tools in the American Mass Media and Communication. Her belief is: “I’m not a teacher, but an awakener.” ~ Robert Frost

Connect with Deborah:

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More about Deborah

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