When is a relationship worth fighting for and when is it time to cut and run? In our latest episode of Pod Talk, Henry sits down with two New York couples therapists to explore what it really means when two people stop connecting and begin to drift apart.

Patrick McCormick is a former ad man turned licensed psychotherapist based in Brooklyn, NY. He specializes in helping men, couples, groups, and co-founders build healthier, more honest relationships — whether that's in boardrooms or bedrooms. In a culture that lionizes winner-takes-all individualism, Patrick believes that learning to truly relate and collaborate is nothing short of a radical act.

Jordan Dann is a psychoanalyst, traumatologist, and educator whose work weaves together depth psychology, attachment theory, and nervous system science into a powerful framework for relational healing. Drawing on Somatic Experiencing, Gestalt, and psychoanalytic perspectives, Jordan helps individuals and couples transform unconscious patterns into conscious, embodied choice. She is the author of Somatic Therapy for Healing Trauma and co-editor of Experiential Therapies for Treating Trauma, and teaches clinicians internationally. She also serves on faculty at Gestalt Associates for Psychotherapy, where she trains therapists in relational, embodied approaches to healing.

Together, Patrick and Jordan join us to dig into some of the questions we don't ask often enough: What is conflict actually for in a relationship? Why does difference — in values, in temperament, in need — so often feel threatening rather than enriching? And what does it really look like when a friendship, romantic partnership, or family bond becomes dysfunctional, and what, if anything, can be done about it?