Changing your mind requires vulnerability. And vulnerability requires trust. So how can a trial lawyer earn the trust of juries and judges before they try to change their minds? And when should an attorney be vulnerable and change their own mind, too?

Aaron Nelson sits down with longtime defender Bob Pepin, who has spent 40 years as a state public defender, in private practice, and as a federal defender. Bob explains why the opening statement is your chance to become the trusted truth teller, and why a lawyer who admits “I’m not sure I can do this, but I’m going to try” may be the most persuasive person in the room.

Along the way, Bob shows us how an army brat who grew up on military bases and enlisted in 1971 came to rethink his views on Vietnam, and how his father changed his mind too. We’ll learn how to use cultural references to better reach an audience, and why he’s still hopeful about the next generation of defenders, despite the changes in our field.

Changing your mind isn't a weakness. It’s the job.

Watch on Youtube

Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter

Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net

Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle

TikTok: ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩

Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

Before this podcast had a name, before COVID, it began as a collection of conversations with friends. This is the very first interview ever taped for this project, pulled out of the archives.

Meet Attorney Ben Gonring, a Madison, Wisconsin public defender who's spent thirty years as a shield protecting kids in juvenile court. Ben has a cartoon taped next to his desk of a prosecutor asking a judge to charge a tadpole as a frog — and it's become the lens through which he sees his entire career. This conversation is about why we must defend children differently than we defend adults, and what the juvenile system can teach us about criminal justice at large.

In this episode, you'll learn:

1. Why juvenile court exists as its own world. The legal and philosophical case for why a 12-year-old sitting in front of a judge can't — and shouldn't — be treated by the same rules as an adult.
2. Why the goal is behavior modification, not punishment. Ben breaks down what juvenile court is actually designed to do, and why he believes punishment alone rarely accomplishes it for anyone, kid or adult.
3. What three decades on the front lines of the system reveals about it. From the built-in fairness gaps kids face, to the small, quiet moments that change a kid's trajectory more than any verdict does — Ben's career offers an honest look at what attorneys can do in this system.

In addition to his legal lessons, Ben shows us why kindness is a skill that triumphs all, and how each of us can learn it, teach it, and use it more.

Watch on Youtube

Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter

Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net

Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle

TikTok: ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩

Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle

Nineteen times, Andrea Lyon stood in front of twelve people and asked them to spare her client’s life. Nineteen times, those people chose not to convict the death penalty.

Over her ongoing 50 year career, the trial attorney the Chicago Tribune dubbed "The Angel of Death Row" began in the Cook County Public Defender's Office, where she rose to become Chief of the Homicide Task Force. Of the more than 30 potential capital cases she defended at the trial level, she took 19 all the way through the penalty phase — and won every single one, making her the first woman in the country to serve as lead attorney in a death penalty case.

Beyond the courtroom, Andrea founded the Illinois Capital Resource Center and went on to hold academic leadership roles, including a stint as Dean of Valparaiso University Law School and, before that, Clinical Professor of Law and Associate Dean of Clinical Programs at DePaul University College of Law, where she also directed the Center for Justice in Capital Cases. She's the author of the memoir Angel of Death Row: My Life as a Death Penalty Defense Lawyer, among many other publications.

But this episode isn't just about her record — it's about how she used emotion to win those cases. We discuss why juries are quick to accept fear, anger, and shame as legitimate, but treat compassion and empathy with suspicion. Because a trial isn't really a contest of facts — it's about how twelve human beings feel about those facts. Andrea shares what decades in the highest-stakes courtrooms in America taught her about the most powerful thing you can do in front of a jury: remind them they're human too.

Buy Andrea's book here.

Watch on Youtube

Subscribe to our Substack Newsletter

Our website: sanctuaryinthejungle.net

Instagram: @sanctuary_inthe_jungle

TikTok: ⁨@SanctuaryintheJungle⁩

Facebook: Sanctuary in the Jungle