AI and clean tech are converging to influence the pace and nature of
key systems transition.

AI is the great accelerator — but accelerating in the wrong direction is still the wrong direction. In this episode, Wayne and Sally explore the double-edged nature of technology: a powerful enabler of every other systems transition, and a sector with its own rapidly growing footprint. The question isn't whether AI is good or bad — it's what we point it at.

Guests

Joel Makower — Chair & Co-founder, Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz); Strategy Director, Music Sustainability Alliance; lead author, State of Green Business

Anna Lerner Nesbitt — CEO, Climate Collective; former senior leader at Meta, the World Bank Group, and the Global Environment Facility

What We Cover

• Why the five biggest tech companies now outspend the entire oil and gas industry on capital investment
• How AI is enabling breakthroughs in energy grids, supply chain traceability, deforestation monitoring, and more — and where it's falling short
• Why Big Tech's emissions are going up, despite their net zero commitments
• The community backlash against data centres — and why it's crossing political lines
• What "AI literacy" means and why it matters for governments, businesses, and individuals
• Why applied AI in industrial systems — not chatbots — is where the real sustainability impact lies

Key Quotes

"We can now measure emissions and planetary impact far better than we can reduce them." — Joel Makower

"AI will be good, AI could be really positive for whatever we point it towards." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt

"Why can't I know where my AI was processed? Technically, it's totally possible." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt

References

• Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz): trellis.net
• Climate Collective: climatecollective.org
• Kenneth Boulding — the "cowboy economy" vs. the "spaceship economy"
• Donella Meadows — Thinking in Systems

This Episode's Dance

The Paso Doble — a dance of raw power, with the bull and the matador both charging. Who wins? That's the question playing out right now between the hyperscalers, communities, and policymakers.

Next episode: The Food System Transition