Tonight on D&D Outloud, I'm joined by Joseph Laycock, a scholar of religion who explores what happens when belief, culture, and controversy collide. Joe is an associate professor of Religious Studies at Texas State University, and he's written some incredibly relevant work for anyone who remembers when D&D was treated like a portal to perdition, including Dangerous Games, his sharp look at the moral panic over role-playing games. He's also the editor of The Penguin Book of Exorcisms and the Penguin Book of Cults, because apparently he collects moral panics like some people collect dice.

Also joining me tonight is Daniel Harms, a librarian, researcher, and one of the great cartographers of the weird. Dan's work lives at that crossroads where folklore shakes hands with grimoires, and the footnotes start whispering back. He's written and edited a stack of essential occult reference works, including The Necronomicon Files, a deep dive into the "truth behind the legend," and he's spent years tracking the history of magical texts, ritual traditions, and the kind of lore that feels one inch away from becoming an adventure hook. He wrote the Encyclopedia Cthuliana, which is the indispensable source for Cthulhu mythos knowledge. If your idea of fun is "primary sources, but make it eldritch," you're in good company.

You can find Joe's book on cults here.

And Dan's amazing book on the Necronomicon here, and updates on Encyclopedia Cthuliana here.

Jim Lowder is a writer, an editor, a lore architect, and if we're being honest, a kind of Indiana Jones of shared worlds. From Ravenloft to Forgotten Realms to the trenches of TSR itself, Jim has chronicled the industry, shaped it, and occasionally had to wrestle it into coherence with nothing but a red pen and stubborn Massachusetts resolve. He brings history, insight, and the kind of war stories that remind us this hobby was built by humans, not dragons.

Our second guest is a man whose career arc reads like it was designed by a particularly chaotic bard. Pat Kilbane is an actor, comedian, documentarian, and now one of our most energetic chroniclers of Dungeons & Dragons history. You might know him from MADtv, but in the last few years he's become a relentless investigator of the game's past, digging through archives, tracking down lost media, and turning old TSR ephemera into modern revelations. Pat is equal parts entertainer and excavator; he's here not just to tell stories, but to figure out why they matter. Pat Kilbane, welcome to D&D Outloud.

Today, we converse with two firehoses of the human imagination: Mark Diaz Truman and Jay Dragon!

Some people play games. Some people publish games. And then there are the people who change how the whole industry works. Mark Diaz Truman is one of the architects of the modern tabletop renaissance; designer, publisher, organizer, and strategic mastermind behind Magpie Games, one of the forces that helped bring Powered by the Apocalypse roaring into the mainstream. From Masks to Avatar Legends, Mark doesn't just build games. He builds movements, communities, and launchpads for new voices. We are living in a future Mark helped to chart.

Jay Dragon is a creative force. I am over the moon to have her back on because our last conversation was one of my favorites. Jay's the mind behind Wanderhome, and Yazeba's Bed & Breakfast, games that blend gentle heartbreak with radical imagination. She is currently the head of design at Steve Jackson Games. Please welcome the pastoral prophet of indie RPGs, Jay Dragon!

You can find more of Mark's work here: https://magpiegames.com/

And more of Jay Dragon's work here: https://warehouse23.com/collections/possum-creek

Happy Thanksgiving Americans! Here's a seminar from Gamehole Con 2025 about why YOU should be writing geeky nonfiction.

My favorite RPG book of the year is a book of spaceship p*rn designed by two poets!

INFINITY OF SHIPS is random tables for spaceship creation along with stunning artwork and essays that are as fun as they are engaging. The book was brought to us by Adam Good & Jamie Perez, and the pair have another book Kickstarting right now: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/72stations/100-strangers-misfits-weirdos-and-outcasts-for-sci-fi-rpgs

The show also features Justin Sirois, publisher at Severed Books and author of Sickest Witch, a D20 Folk Horror RPG which can be found here: https://www.severedbooks.com/

On Patreon, I posted my Gamehole Con seminar where I went over 18 years of leaked D&D sales data. You can enjoy it posthaste if you subscribe to my Patreon! It's only $3 a month! Click here!

This is an RPG historian you have to hear from.

Shannon Appelcline. He's the mind behind Designers & Dragons, which chronicles our hobby's wild past, from basement print runs to global pop culture phenomenon. Shannon has done the research, interviewed the legends, and connected the dots between decades of dice-rolling history. So grab your character sheet, because today, we're diving deep into how our favorite games became the worlds we live in.

Back Shannon's current project, Dungeons & Dragons: Origins here!

On Patreon, I posted my Gamehole Con seminar where I went over 18 years of leaked D&D sales data. You can enjoy it posthaste if you subscribe to my Patreon! It's only $3 a month! Click here!

What do Cormac McCarthy, Charles Dickens, & Scheherazade say to each other on the podcast? Today, we find out!

First up, we have Meguey Baker: game designer, textile historian, and one of the most revolutionary voices in the history of tabletop gaming. You might know her from 1001 Nights, Psi-Run, or her work on Apocalypse World, a game that cracked open an entire design movement. Meguey's games invite players to explore power, intimacy, and identity with uncommon grace, they whisper truths in a world that's used to shouting. She's proof that you don't need a sword to change the game. Sometimes, all you need is a question and a well-set stage.

Next up is the man lucky enough to be married to Meguey, Vincent Baker, the other half of the mad team that gifted fandom Apocalypse World, whether we would have it or no. A mad scientist of narrative mechanics, Vincent looked at D&D's six stats and thought, "Cute, but what if we had Hot and Cool instead?"

Vincent is the co-creator of Apocalypse World, maker of The Barbarian's Bloody Quest, and a host of games that re-wired how designers think about fiction, failure, and fun.

The fingerprints of the Bakers are everywhere, from Monsterhearts to Blades in the Dark. Their design DNA has gone viral in the best possible way.

Last but by no means least, we have John Harper, the noir poet of the tabletop, the guy who made crime, chaos, and consequence sing in Blades in the Dark. John's work fuses cinematic cool with mechanical precision. He builds worlds where danger is stylish, failure fascinating, and every die roll feels like a drumbeat.

If tabletop games had a film noir auteur, it'd be this guy.

Buy one of John's many fine games here.

Be notified about the Apocalypse World: Burned Over Kickstarter by clicking here.

A quick note. We've had a delay on publishing my Gamehole Con seminar. It should be up in 48 hours, but if you were looking for a link here, I wanted you to know about it.

-Ben

Shamelessly, 30 minutes into this interview with Cam Banks & Fred Hicks, I share leaked D&D sales data.

He's the Kiwi conjurer who helped create the Cortex System, which has been used on everything from Firefly to Marvel. He's made the rules that make the stories sing, and he's living proof that spreadsheets and sorcery can coexist. Please welcome the unflappable, unstoppable Cam Banks!

He's the co-founder of Evil Hat, one of the wizards who bottled lightning and called it Fate. He turned indie passion into publishing power and proved you can run a company on creativity and caffeine. When he's not redefining what "small press" can mean, he's out there building the future one rulebook at a time. Give it up for the hat-tipping hero himself, Fred Hicks!

Support Cam Banks's patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/cw/cambanks

Support Evil Hat's current crowdfunding campaign here: https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/evil-hat/designers-dragons-origins

Next week, I'm planning on posting my seminar from Gamehole Con, where I go over 18 years of D&D sales data. But I'm only posting it on my Patreon! Click here to join so you won't miss it!

https://www.patreon.com/u121641556?utm_medium=unknown&utm_source=join_link&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator&utm_content=copyLink