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Stephen Nachmanovitch is widely known as a musical improviser, and wise teacher of improvisation. But his is an improvisation not separate from life; it is more that of a Zen master’s, tuning into the microscopic contingencies of everyday life, probing life itself as the ground for creativity and wonder. His earliest beginnings as a scientist, and later a student of psychology and scholar of William Blake, have afforded him a uniquely integrative view on the power of play and permeability, on the Pythagorean mysteries of the human mind. Most of all, he was a student of the great systems thinker Gregory Bateson, a presence one can feel when speaking with Stephen, whether through his recounting of anecdotes, his love of silence and patterns, or his generous, playful ways of relating.

This conversation was perhaps a bit unusual for those who know Stephen’s work well: it didn’t so much focus on his two masterful books, Free Play and The Art of Is, as on the many resonances between his existential understanding of improvisation and the central questions that animate the enactive approach: Why is creativity a key feature of living organisms? Are humans born improvisers? What makes it such that computers can’t play? What makes improvisation an eminently ethical exercise in equality, and a template for democracy? Are there limits to improvisation as a tool for living well in society? How do we navigate the many tensions inherent in improvisation, between agency and letting be, between the safety of a temenos and the boundarilessness of interdependence? How do we more finely tune our semi-permeable membranes, discerning when to open and when to close? Where can we look for those “Pythagorean hippies” (as Bateson called them) who are able to see, before the rest of us, the patterns that connect all of life?

True to his mentor’s aphorism, “there are no things, only relationships,” this conversation was a generous exercise of relationality, humility, creativity, and wisdom.

Dr Stephen Nachmanovitch performs and teaches internationally as an improvisational violinist and at the intersections of multimedia, performing arts, ecology, and philosophy. He is the author of two books on the creative process, Free Play and The Art of Is. Born in 1950, he graduated in 1971 from Harvard with a degree in psychology and in 1975 from the University of California, where he earned a Ph.D. in the History of Consciousness for an exploration of William Blake. His mentor was the anthropologist and philosopher Gregory Bateson. He has taught and lectured in many countries on creativity and the spiritual, social, and ethical underpinnings of art, and on Bateson’s ecology of mind. Since the 1970s he has been a pioneer in free improvisation on violin, viola, and electric violin. He has presented lectures, master classes and workshops at many universities and conservatories, and has had numerous appearances on radio, television, and at music and theatre festivals. He has collaborated with other artists in media including music, dance, theatre, and film, and has developed programs melding art, music, literature, and computer technology. He has published articles in many fields since 1966 and has created computer software including The World Music Menu and Visual Music Tone Painter. He has been a Buddhist practitioner for decades and his Buddhist and musical practices inform each other. He is currently performing, recording, teaching, and writing. He lives with his family in Charlottesville, Virginia.

For more about Stephen’s work: www.imaginaryliberation.com | www.freeplay.com | https://youtu.be/t0bS-CcOYbQ

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What if we began to think of reason as plural — reasons or reasonings — rather than the monolithic "Reason" from on high? What would it be like to think with all five senses, going beyond our habitual ocularcentrism? What if affect were both disruptor and the source of our greatest inflexibility? What role does ritual have in metabolizing the whole spectrum of human affect, both individually and collectively? What relationship holds between beauty and ethics in times such as these? What can art, philosophy, and activism learn from one another? How can we create alliances across sociological divides that habitually keep theorists and activists separate? Finally, how can we create more plausible scenarios of hope for a greater number of people?

This conversation was possibly the most wide-ranging we’ve had so far on the podcast. As you’ll hear, Dr Kilian Jörg is a capacious and audacious thinker, and has reflected long and hard on some of modernity’s most recalcitrant (and most insidious) problems: problems ranging from the climate crisis to the loss of ritual, from polarization to ‘the hope gap.’ But they don’t just do the hard thinking; they are also engaging with these problems from the ground up, reaching across sociological divides that may seem unbridgeable to many. A kaleidoscopic thinker, Kilian is as fluent in the realm of philosophy — drawing from Isabelle Stengers, Bruno Latour, and Michel Serres — as they are in the world of art and ecological justice, inspired by the likes of Timothy Morton and Elin Kelsey. All in all, this conversation was a masterclass in what it means to refuse the dualisms between thinking and acting, between theory and activism, and to invoke the possibility of pluralism in the face of pure criticality.

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Dr Kilian Jörg works both artistically and philosophically on the topic of ecological catastrophe and how its transformative forces can best be imagined and deployed. Previous publications have covered themes as wide ranging as club culture, the political backlash from an ecological perspective, cultivating distance in catastrophic times, and a speculative religion of waste. Their current research topics are the car as a metaphor for our toxic entanglements with modern lifestyles (released in book form as “Das Auto und die ökologische Katastrophe” in 2024), the socio-psychological effects of living with ecocide, and radical activist strategies of reclaiming land like the ZAD in France (published as "Durchlöchert den Status Quo!" in 2025). Kilian is working both in theory as well as artistic and activist practice on how to create rituals that enable us to cultivate more complex feelings in times of collapse. They currently teach at the School of Transformation at the University of Applied Arts Vienna and the program Plastic and Environment at the Art University of Linz. Furthermore, they are affiliated with various collectives, such as the Futurama.Lab, Stoffwechsel - Ecologies of Collaboration, and the CRC Affective Societies at the FU Berlin.

More about our guest: www.kilianj.org | Paper referenced: "Affect as Disruption: Affective Experimentation, Automobility, and the Ecological Crisis"

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