We're joined by Joe Pine on January 31, just days before the release of his long-awaited new book, The Transformation Economy (February 4, 2026). For longtime listeners, this conversation will feel both familiar and bracingly new. Familiar because we have spent the last two years exploring, applying, and occasionally interrogating the very ideas Joe now brings together in this book. New because Joe pushes the argument further and with more precision than ever before.

Building on his seminal work on experiences, Joe makes the case that economic value has moved decisively into a new domain: transformations. Not experiences staged for customers, but transformations designed with them—where the explicit aim is lasting change in who the customer is or what they are capable of becoming. That shift, Joe argues, carries profound implications not just for strategy, but for accountability, pricing, and purpose.

This episode is not a book report. It's a rigorous conversation between fellow travelers who share a vocabulary but are still very much in productive tension. We explore where transformation fits (and doesn't) in real organizations, why so many firms mistake motivation for method, and why treating transformation as optional is itself a category error.

If you've been following our ongoing work on transformation, this episode serves as both a capstone and a catalyst. If you're new to the idea, consider this your initiation—fair warning: once you see the economy this way, it's rather difficult to unsee it.