For decades, financial journalist and HerMoney CEO Jean Chatzky has told people to save, save, save for retirement. But what happens when it’s finally time to spend that hard-earned money? This week, Michelle talks to Jean, her longtime friend, about her new book, “The Forever Paycheck,” and the challenges of turning a lifetime of savings into retirement income. Together they explore why so many struggle to spend in retirement and how to start building a forever paycheck.

Want Michelle to answer your money question? Email dollarsandsense@washpost.com for a chance to be on the show.

00:00 Welcome to Dollars & Sense with Michelle Singletary

01:41 Meet Jean Chatzky: HerMoney Founder

02:58 How Has the Conversation Around Money Changed?

05:55 What is a Forever Paycheck?

09:30 Why Jean's Mother Couldn't Spend Her Retirement Savings

12:57 Why We're So Afraid of Running Out of Money

15:25 Michelle Can’t Spend $30 on a Phone Case

18:36 When Couples Disagree About Retirement Spending

20:09 Planning for the Retirement You Want

22:01 How Much Money Do You Really Need to Retire?

25:21 How to Start When Money is Tight

28:49 Investments vs. Annuities: Which is Right for You?

36:11 Give Yourself Permission to Enjoy Your Retirement

38:58 Is the 4% Retirement Rule Still Reliable?

41:17 Jean's Advice to Michelle

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