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Dr. Eliot Cohen, Professor Emeritus and former Dean at the School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University, and author of The Strategist: How to Think About War and Politics, joins Joe to explore a fundamental question: What is strategy, and why is it so difficult to get right?

Cohen explains why strategy is about more than military power, advanced technology, or battlefield success.

Joe and Cohen discuss why leaders become fixated on technology and metrics instead of the problems they're trying to solve, how military and political leaders must work together, and why intelligence alone is not enough to make someone a good strategist.

Joe and Cohen also discuss:

• Why we've allowed the definition of strategy to become so broad that it's losing its meaning
• The seven fundamental questions strategists must ask, including "Who are those guys?" and "What is our theory of victory?"
• Why political objectives change during wars and what that means for military leaders
• How the United States struggled to understand its adversaries in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan
• Why an obsession with metrics can create the illusion of progress without producing meaningful results
• Why good judgment and character matter more than raw intelligence when making strategic decisions
• The importance of making room for unconventional thinkers and leaders who challenge the status quo
• How deep reading, writing, and keeping a journal develop the ability to think strategically
• Why studying military history helps leaders prepare for surprise and uncertainty
• How competition with China, emerging technologies, and increasingly complex warfare will challenge future strategists.

Whether you're a junior officer preparing for greater responsibility, a senior leader making difficult decisions, or someone interested in understanding how strategy works, this conversation offers a deeper appreciation for the challenges of turning military power into political success.

A special thanks to our sponsors

A special thanks to this week's sponsors!

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Ron Johnson, former Apple executive and architect of the Apple Store, joins Joe to discuss his new book, Shop Different: How Retail Revealed Apple's Genius, and the leadership lessons he learned working alongside Steve Jobs. From helping transform Target to building one of the most successful retail concepts in history, Johnson shares what it takes to challenge conventional thinking, pursue bold ideas, and learn from failure.

Joe and Johnson explore how Apple reimagined the retail experience at a time when many believed physical stores were becoming obsolete. Johnson reflects on the importance of having a clear vision, earning trust, building a culture centered on serving customers, and translating ambitious ideas into reality. He also discusses the challenges of leading change and the lessons he learned from his time as CEO of JCPenney.

Joe and Johnson also discuss:

• How Johnson came to work with Steve Jobs and help create the Apple Store
• Tips for working with a demanding boss
• What he learned about leadership, innovation, and decision-making from Jobs
• Why Apple challenged conventional assumptions about retail
• The importance of creating an experience rather than simply selling products
• How leaders can build trust and inspire others to embrace a bold vision
• Why challenging conventional wisdom requires both courage and conviction
• The leadership lessons he took away from his experience at JCPenney
• Why failure can be one of the most valuable teachers in a leader's career
• The importance of keeping the human experience at the center of business

Whether you're leading a military formation, running a business, or trying to bring a new idea to life, this conversation offers lessons on vision, innovation, and leadership. Johnson's experiences demonstrate what it takes to challenge established ways of thinking, build something that lasts, and continue learning when things don't go as planned.

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Jared Diamond, Pulitzer Prize-winning author of Guns, Germs, and Steel and Prophets, Coaches, and Kings, joins Joe to explore a fundamental question: When do leaders actually make a difference, and when are their successes or failures shaped by circumstances beyond their control?

Joe and Diamond discuss how luck, timing, resources, and institutional advantages influence leadership outcomes. Drawing on examples from history, business, sports, and the military, Diamond challenges traditional ideas about great leaders and explains how natural experiments can help separate individual contributions from outside factors.

They explore why coaches and CEOs may account for only a quarter of their organizations' success, how favorable conditions helped Genghis Khan build his empire, why Winston Churchill was the right leader at the right moment, and how even brilliant commanders like Erwin Rommel faced limitations they could not overcome.

Joe and Diamond also discuss:

• The Hamlet Test and how to determine whether a leader was truly indispensable
• The strengths and limitations of using biographies to study leadership
• Why firing an underperforming coach may not improve a team's performance
• The role of luck and timing in Mark Zuckerberg's success
• How Seretse Khama, Botswana's founding president, chose to limit his own power for the greater good
• Why so few powerful political leaders voluntarily step down
• The importance of charisma and organizational ability in building religious movements
• What Diamond has learned about leadership across politics, business, sports, and religion
• How Diamond continues researching, writing, and learning at 89 years old
• Why keeping notebooks has been essential to his research and writing process since he was three years old

Whether you're leading a military formation, running a business, coaching a team, or simply trying to understand what makes leaders effective, this conversation challenges how we assign credit and blame. It offers lessons on recognizing the influence of circumstances, questioning the stories we tell about successful leaders, and developing the humility to recognize that even the greatest leaders rarely succeed on their own.

A Special Thanks to our Sponsors!

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Meet Nightwing. Made to serve the mission. Hardwired to defend the nation. Against an ever-evolving threat landscape, Nightwing brings deep expertise and an unwavering commitment to U.S. national security. From cyberspace to orbit, Nightwing operates at the edge of complexity — delivering some of the world's most technically advanced capabilities to see what others don't, go where others won't, and achieve what others can't.