It's quite rare for a guest to have to drop out of a planned visit to the Frank and Stan Chat but that happened recently so we used the World Wide Web to ask for volunteers. We’re pleased to report that a few people responded. We were then presented with a problem. How do you select which one? We decided to choose the first person who'd replied and that was Joe Pardoe.

Joe has a fascinating back story and a varied career in education. He explains all of this at the start of the chat. We were particularly interested in his experiences working at School 21. We explained how well we knew Liz Robinson, a colleague closely linked to School 21 and her work as co-founder of Big Education. Joe explained brilliantly was a fascinating time it was and how it continues to strongly influence his work.

The chat moves on to the regular slot of ‘what’s caught our eye/s this week?’

- Stan drew attention to the RISE advisers and the distances some have been expected to travel to support schools. He explains the fundamental weaknesses in this approach including its inefficiencies. He then wonders why existing school improvement services that exist locally have not been brought into the RISE programme?

- Joe, switches the issue of ‘what’s caught our eye’ to 'what hasn’t caught our eye? He wonders why the school admission notification date for the Primary phase appears to have got such little attention. He points out that for his family, it has been a hot topic on local Whatsapp groups with parents asking for advice and support and wondering what they will do if they don’t get their first choice?

- Frank then considers the appointment of Matthew Purves as the Ofsted Director charged with leading the development of the MAT/SAT inspection Framework. He explains why the appointment may rest heavy for those involved in the Caversham Primary School tragedy and questions why some fresh talent wasn’t sought for such a challenging role?

It’s a friendly, supportive, and we hope interesting chat. Joe was a great guest.

Enjoy

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Our guests this week are Alan Braven and Anthony Benedict. Anthony is CEO of Ambition Community Trust and Executive Head Teacher of Tameside Pupil Referral Service, with 27 years of experience in education.

Alan is a recently retired Executive Headteacher of Endeavour Federation, which provides specialist SEMH (Social, Emotional, and Mental Health) provision in Manchester. They are co-authors of the book 'Educating Everyone: An Introduction to Relational Inclusion in Schools'

This week's chat about education and leadership includes the following issues:

1. Should Martin's Law, when introduced in 2027, be a shared responsibility between the Headteacher/CEO and the Governing Body /Trust Board?

2. An FOI to the DfE reveals what they view a successful school to be. It's a disconcerting and deeply troubling picture.

3. The White Paper may be a signal of a step forward, but the Inclusion Hubs appear to be poorly thought through.

4. Can we have a commitment to inclusion when we still expect parents/carers to buy school uniform that is so expensive?

An engaging, lively and respectful chat between colleagues feeling comfortable with each other.

Enjoy.

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In May 2025, Frank met Ellen Mukwewa at a conference, and they followed this up with a virtual chat or two. During one the chats Ellen explained that she and her good friend Michelle Baker had created a new organisation bringing together those involved in the non-association independent school sector. As this was an issue the Frank and Stan Chat had not covered on a regular basis it seemed a good opportunity to set up a SPOTLIGHT edition to better understand the sector.

This SPOTLIGHT delves into a sector that is poorly understood by many but is a crucial element in supporting many children and young people with a diverse range of needs. What follows is a fascinating discussion.

Enjoy, and we hope learn more about their newly formed alliance, their upcoming conference and their ambition for the future.

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It is always a pleasure to have a previous guest return to our chat so that we can develop further some key points from the initial chat. Cathal Lynch joined us in March 2025 and received some of the highest viewing and listening figures in recent times. He's an engaging and deeply committed colleague who has focused on wellbeing in schools in recent years. The Wellbeing Quality Mark is well worth considering www.wbqm.co.uk

This chat considers the financial effectiveness of some high-profile trusts that have encountered financial challenges in recent weeks. Stan and Cathal let rip with Frank acting more like a BBC journalist. We should add that many trusts are well-led and financially secure, but there are still some lessons to learn from recent issues and problems. Frank closes the chat with reference to a recently published research paper into 'stuck' schools, a phrase he personally dislikes. TURNING AROUND ‘STUCK’ SCHOOLS IN ENGLAND: EFFECTIVE LEADERSHIP IN EXTREMELY CHALLENGING CIRCUMSTANCES by Bernadette Munoz and Melanie Ehren challenges the idea that support from afar is unlikely to be effective. A message perhaps for the RISE programme.

Enjoy.

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Rebecca Leek, poet, musician, former Headteacher of three schools, broadcaster and author of The School-Ready Governor returns to the chat. She was a guest in March 2025 and made a very favourable impression, bringing a wide range of insights on education and leadership. It's a timely chat with World Book Day on Thursday 5th March.

Rebecca explains how her life has changed in some respects since our last chat and how she is engaging in so many more things. These include;

- creating a podcast that focuses on poetry called 'The Ditty Bag' https://rebeccaleek.substack.com/podcast

- learning to play the accordian, and;

- performing it in a band. She continues to be involved in the Suffolk Primary Headteachers' Association.

This week's chat starts with Stan explaining why Martin's Law continues to be an issue, which he feels isn't getting sufficient attention. He draws on some interesting examples of how schools have tried to be innovative in addressing possible risks to pupil and staff safety. Rebecca makes clear that risk assessment and mitigation are proactive and positive measures.

Rebecca then considers the implications for SEND within the recent White Paper. She is concerned about the sense of universality that embraces the report and the difficulties in managing parent and carer expectations moving forward. We also discuss how effective a national training programme for SEND will be and the implication it conveys, that schools are not effective in managing the issues.

Frank completes the discussion by considering what he learned from 4 months of interim CEO work for a small trust in Greater Manchester.

An interesting and broad ranging discussion. Sorry, it went over the 35 minutes limit, but we felt it was worthwhile. We hope you agree.

The various links Rebecca referenced in the chat can be found below

www.rebeccaleek.com

Podcast: The Ditty Bag

Author: The School Ready Governor - Bloomsbury

Exec. Director: Suffolk Primary Headteachers' Association

Find Rebecca on X and Instagram

And a new project she is crowdfunding for: 'Elizabeth Fry Stops By'

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/p/elizabeth-fry-stops-by

Enjoy

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Frank has known Mel since 2013, has observed her teaching, leading staff training and contributing strongly to developments in a number of schools. She's an energetic, gifted and committed colleague. When Frank and Stan realised she had published a book, we thought it was a good time to invite her and her co-author Andy Buck, to sit down and explain why they felt a focus on supply teachers and cover supervisors was a good topic.

What followed was much more than just a chat about those specific staff roles, but more an explanation as to what effective teaching looks like, what skills are necessary and how senior leaders should perhaps do more to support. Mel draws on her many years of teaching, but also a period when she undertook supply cover in another secondary school in North Manchester and how she needed to draw on her experience to have a positive impact.

We discover the role that Andy played in encouraging Mel to sit down and write the book in collaboration with him. The section of the chat at 20 mins where Mel explains her teaching approach is well worth ten minutes of every person who leads a class. At under £10 for a copy of the book, it is something every school should have a copy of.

Sit back and enjoy the chat. It's a belter.

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When we started the Frank and Stan Chat in May 2020, we thought it would last a week or two. It was a way for the two friends to keep in touch during the various Covid lockdowns. Astonishingly, the chats have now reached the 250 mark. We never planned to have a certain guest for this special edition. To be honest, we don't work in that way. Setting up the chats relies on a number of diaries coming together, but we were pleased to have the amazing Paul Ainsworth with us for this special chat. Paul has been a guest twice before and we have found his support and engagement an important part of why we continue to meet every week and record the chats.

This recording is slightly different because we reflect on the chats and how they developed, we than have Paul discussing an article he had published earlier that day where he considers the outcomes of the first batch of Ofsted inspections and then it closes with Frank returning to Chat No. 102 where his brother, a former HMI with Estyn shares what he would put in Room 101.

A lovely discussion and a suitable one for a chat that is always meant to be kind and reflective.

Enjoy.

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